[SunilHiwarkat1965]

BAPD is Bis-Amino Propyl Dimethicone.

I have tried 2-3 times on my hair.

Not yet tested repeated use after hair feel. I Wii do that.

As you said 1:4; 1:5 ratio is definitely enough but I observed viscosity drop during specific fragrance addition & hence opting out for coemulsifyer such as cetereth 20.

More over I am much worried about inconsistent results may be I couldn’t standardize the process yet.

Is it - high shear initially for 5 minutes > mix on low shear till 45-40 degrees > again high shear for couple of minutes > mix slowly on low shear till cool down — as mentioned by @ Chemicalmatt in one of the discussion.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

@Ketchito I have tried a batch without Sodium chloride. Shall update tomorrow. Thank you so much.

Update:- After 36 hrs viscosity is not in proportion to cetostearyl alcohol used. I think salt addition can make it better & acceptable.

I shall be taking a commercial batch of 80 kgs within couple of days. Shall update accordingly. Thank you so much for your kind help.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

I think now I am able to upload the screen shot. kindly guide you resolve this issue.

Screenshot_20230320-120108_Chrome-1.jpg 244 KB Image File - Click to view

Options

• Copy Download Link

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

I don’t know whether the screen shot is uploaded or not ? When posting a reply ketchito, it shows ” Error:- This forum is a catagory. No replies can be created in this forum. ”

What does it mean?

My earlier reply was posted but now it is repeatedly saying the same thing. Pl. help.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

I am not able to reply to one of the comments. I am here with attaching a screen shot for the same. Kindly help

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

@ketchito Ok. Here is the formula. Hair Conditioner Batch size 100gm.

A) Water Phase

EDTA…. 0.10%

Water….. qs.

Glycerine.. 3.00%

BTAC .. 3.00%

B) Oil Phase

Cetearyl alcohol.. 4.67%

Dimethicon.. 4.50%

BAPD… 1.00%

C) 20% Sodium Chloride solution.. 0.25% ( @ 40 degree Celsius)

D) Cool Down Phase

Euxyl 510k.. 0.15%

Fragrance… 0.70%

As guided by you earlier, I have calculated molar ratio @ 1:3 ( since I have increased BTAC from 1.87% to 3% ; I didn’t opt out for 1:4 molar ratio)

Thank you for reply

BTW:- It will very much helpful if you can guide & explain the basic criteria for calculating quantity of Ceteareth20

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

I am struggling to start a new discussion. As pointed out earlier there is a button below discussion; I am unable to find it.

Can somebody guide me pl.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

Surely. I can do so. Kindly confirm once you receive it & also try at your end to share them here for others.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

@Abdullah yes. I have these documents plus two more. I am unable to upload. May be because of large file size. Can you pl. suggest me alternative so that I can share them here. Believe me with these documents you will come very close to the theory of LGN.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

No doubt much more cleaner design. For me it will take more time to get well acquainted.

The key issue I am facing is -

I don’t see full list of members when we wish to address particular Member. I have to go back to his comment; copy the link & paste it.

I am unable to upload files. Is it due to file size ? It gets uploaded half way & suddenly message appears unable to upload.

Pl. guide.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

Here are those links for 2 documents I referred above. 1)https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314604663_Lamellar_Gel_Network

2)https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009250921003171#:~:text=Increasing%20the%20temperature%20reduced%20the,the%20majority%20of%20the%20process.

Hope this will be useful for better understanding of LGN????

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

Hello Everybody. Recently I had the same problem with formulating hair conditioner. @ketchito & @Abdullah guided me. I have made small batches (100gm) & may take commercial batch incoming month.

What you said is correct: inconsistent results. You have to be precisely accurate as far as processing of LGN is concerned.

What I learned from theory is:-

1) Add incompatible ingredients such as silicone after the LGN is formed

2) Add oils, esters in oil phase for equal distribution.

3) To avoid instability mix vigorously close to phase transition temperature.

However as adviced by @ketchito I added silicones in oil phase itself & it not only worked out well but resolved the issue even for large batches. I am unable to upload 3 most important documents related to this topic. But still @chemicalmatt comments are self explanatory.

I really appreciate people who apply this theory even for Skin care products. In my experience the results are truly unpredictable.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

Thank you Ketchio, Thank you Abdullah. Just one more question if you don’t mind.

I observed variations in final product viscosity/ spreadibility/ conditioning. I know it is process dependent. But with the same formula & process some times I get different results. For a 100 gm batch I use to stir it at 300 rpm for 5 minutes & continue the mixing further at 200 rpm until cool down. Is that correct?

What should be standard protocol?

Thanks in advance.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

I buy & use commercial products though I have many ingredients at my lab store to make them. The primary reasons for this are-

To compare their performance with  products formulated by me.

To update myself about latest trends in market.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

Abdullah said:

SunilHiwarkat1965 said:

@Abdullah, Thank you very much for corrections. I should have checked COA of the supplier. Truly a very big mistake. 

Abdullah said:

Molecular weight of cetearyl alcohol 30/70 is 250. 

Below 1:4 ratio the viscosity will be very low. 1:4-1:6 is best for viscosity and stability.

 For each % BTAC 1.86% fatty alcohol gives you 1:3 molar ratio

Do you mean active BTAC ?
Would you pl.don’t mind to explain me  the molar ratio calculations. I shall be very much obliged if you can spare some time.That will clear my basic concepts.
Thanks in advance 

Yes active BTAC surfactant. 

Every one calculate it their own way. 
I do it like this.

Suppose A is emulsifier, B is fatty alcohol.

A÷0.molar weight of A×times of fatty alcohol×0.molar weight of fatty alcohol.
This this my formula 

Now suppose A is 1% active BTAC molar weight  404.15596. B is cetearyl alcohol molar weight 250. 
The ratio you want to be 1:4 4 time the amount of fatty alcohol. It will be calculated like this.

1÷0.40415596×4×0.25= ~2.5 fatty alcohol.

So for each % of BTAC at 1:4 molar ratio you will need ~2.5% fatty alcohol. 

@ Abdullah, wow!!.. you further simplified it. Thank you very very much. Now I can work hurdle free on conditioner project.
I have gone through almost all threads initiated by you & have gathered, stored million dollars worth technical information. Thank you for that also. 

Shall update very soon. 

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

ketchito said:

@SunilHiwarkat1965 Here are some calculations:

1) # moles of BTAC = (1.87g x 0./404.16 g/mol = 3.7 x 10-3 moles -> assuming a 100g sample, an 80% active ingredient, and that it’s the only emulsifier in your formula)

2) # moles of Cetearyl alcohol = 3.12g / 264 g/mol = 11.8 x 10-3 moles -> assuming a 100g sample, and a 50/50 ratio of stearyl/cetyl alcohols

molar rario emulsifiers/fatty alcohols = 3.7 x 10-3 / 11.8 x 10-3 = 0.3135, which is approximately 1:3.189, which is more or less what @Abdullah mentioned….again, that’s assuming you only have one emulsifier (BTAC). Try increase the amount of your Cetearyl alcohol a bit, to get closer to the 1:4, and check the difference (you’ll have a higher number of “rings” which you’d only see through the use of some equipments, but also you’ll notice an increase in viscosity, stability and lower TEWL once applied on a surface). 

 

Whole hearted Thank you for providing such a useful calculation.
A very BIG Thank you for bearing with  me.
I recollected my memories way back in the year 2000, when I just entered cosmetic field & was struggling to gather basic information. With much efforts I could get Xerox copy of  ” Harry’s Cosmetology  ” from a local Pharmacy college. That day, I was the  happiest person on this earth. Today you enjoyed me the ride of  same feel & excitement. Thank you for that. Today I have almost 18 books on Cosmetic science in my library including perry’s  Conditioning ingredients for Hair & Skin. 

what a wonderful Forum, broad minded members, ready to help even for basic information without ego.  Feel very proud and fortunate as a member of this forum. 
My sincere Thanks to you ketchito.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

@Abdullah, Thank you very much for corrections. I should have checked COA of the supplier. Truly a very big mistake. 

Abdullah said:

Molecular weight of cetearyl alcohol 30/70 is 250. 

Below 1:4 ratio the viscosity will be very low. 1:4-1:6 is best for viscosity and stability.

 For each % BTAC 1.86% fatty alcohol gives you 1:3 molar ratio

Do you mean active BTAC ?
Would you pl.don’t mind to explain me  the molar ratio calculations. I shall be very much obliged if you can spare some time.That will clear my basic concepts.
Thanks in advance 

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

MariaSibon said:

Hello, I am thankful for all the fruitful discussion in this forum and all these experts in the field. Myself being a rather newbie in cosmetics formulation, I have a project for Hair styling gel that needs to be economic, strong hold and resemble the  “gum effect” in hair gels.

My question is 
1) what is your understanding about Gum effect hair gel? I have studied a few inspiration samples and my understanding is that it is a different texture from the classic hair gels, thicker and heavier like “jam”.

2) I have reached to a formulation that is acceptable for the holding and styling benefits, but I need to improve the texture to look thicker and  more “gummy”.
Any suggestions? I give my ingredients below. 

Aqua, VP/VA Copolymer (Luviskol VA 73 W), Glycerine,  Carbomer(Carbopol Ultrez10), Polysorbate 20, Aminomethyl propanol, (AMP-95), Fragrance, Preservative, Colour

I think I cannot succeed a better thickness with these polymers combination, as I am already using 2% Carbopol Ultrez 10 and 13% Luviskol VA 73W. 

Now I am thinking to experiment with other polymers combination, I have available PVP K 30 powder(Luviskol k30), polyacrylates-2 crosspolymer (Fixate superhold), Novemer EC-2.

Any suggestions?

Thank you in advance

I have used Ultrez 10 polymer. It gives less thickening than Ultrez 20, & even much lesser than Ultrez 21 & 30.
I have used it in After wax Gel where I needed little flow.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

@ketchito,  Earlier I have done  molar ratio calculations @ ratio of 1:3 ( BTAC: Fatty alcohol) Pl. just check.

molecular wt. of BTAC   = 404.16 gm/mol.
I used 80% BTAC in Formulation = 1.5% active BTAC
Total molecular wt. Of BTAC = 1.5×404.16  = 606.24

Required ratio of BTAC: cetearyl alcohol  = 1:3
And Molecular wt of cetearyl alcohol = 512.94 gm/ mol.
Therefore cetearyl alcohol required 
= (606.24×3)  ÷ 512.94 = 3.56 gm.

Are these calculations correct? Pl. Correct me if I am wrong. 

Thanks in advance.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

@Abdullah, Thank you for the suggestions. For Both HEC & HPMC the MOQ is 25 kg. ( for standard version )  There is no project in pipeline to consume such a large quantity hence I overlooked that option. 
Also personally I wanted to make LGN without any additional support of polymers. In fact this project gave me an opportunity to learn a lot about theory as well practical. I treated this whole exercise as a Golden chance to learn. 

When working on this project I learned that LGNs are quite robust provided your amphipiles ratio is correct & most importantly your processing is proper. Hence I was always trying optimize the ratio & correct my processing to make it robust instead of using HEC/ CPMC

THANK YOU so much Abdullah for sharing. I am thankful to each & every comment shared on various threads in the context of LGNs.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

I am really sorry to bother you. But the same problem is arising again even after using the link.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

You are welcome.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

Calculating lost water after heating will drop the temperature considerably. Normally I add 7% extra water in the beginning itself to compensate that loss.( This is for 100 gm batch. For 200/300 gm. batch size it may be reduced to 5%) For conditioner batch especially with BTAC you may need around 8% as BTAC is solubilized @ 85 degree Celsius.

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

I think the link you are referring is Adsorption to keratin surfaces: A Continuum between a charge driven and a hydrophobically driven process

C. R. ROBBINS, C. REICH and A PATEL

[SunilHiwarkat1965]

Sure. I would love to do so. It will be great addition to my knowledge. Kindly share.

Thank you so much.