[Squinny]

Hi Mark what about Disodium EDTA as a swap for the Phytic Acid? And if so what % to use? Or Sodium Phytate? Many thanks and if this is a stupid question let me know. 

[Squinny]

MarkBroussard said:

Squinny said:

Hi Mark can you advise what % of each of  PE9010 + Sodium Phytate + Sodium Benzoate you would recommmend? Many thanks

@Squinny:  For a water-based serum:  PE9010 (1%) + Sodium Benzoate (0.35%) + Pentylene Glycol (2%) + Phytic Acid (0.2%); pH = 4.6 to 4.8

If you’re working with an emulsion:  PE9010 (1%) + Sodium Benzoate (0.35%) + Pentylene Glycol (2%) + Phytic Acid (0.2%) + Caprylyl Glycol (0.3%); pH = 4.6 to 4.8  

Thanks so much for that Mark. Appreciate your advice. Cheers

[Squinny]

MarkBroussard said:

@GeorgeBenson

Abdulla is correct.  PE9010 generally causes less irritation than Na Benzoate or Potassium Sorbate.

But, PE9010 + Sodium Phytate as the only preservation components is weak.  A better combination would be PE9010 + Sodium Phytate + Sodium Benzoate to give you better coverage on yeast/mold/fungi.

The reputational issue as it regards Phenoxyethanol is largely driven by retailers who are increasingly putting Phenoxyethanol on the “No” list and won’t carry products that contain Phenoxyethanol as opposed to irritation from Phenoxyethanol.  It all depends on what distrubtion channels GeorgeBenson is targeting.

Hi Mark can you advise what % of each of  PE9010 + Sodium Phytate + Sodium Benzoate you would recommmend? Many thanks

[Squinny]

ggpetrov said:

It is a mixture of Cetyl palmitate, Sorbitan stearate and Sorbitan palmitate. No, it’s not an emulsifier, but a consistency enhancer and a liquid cristal promoter. Actually it can be coupled with Olivem at 2-3% as a replacement of the fatty alcohols, and gives light and very pleasant textures with softening effect. Recently I am using it together with Olivem 1000 and I am in love with the results. Also you can reduce the fat phase drastically, because both the Olivem and Oliwax play role as an emollients too.

Great many thanks for that info very helpful - I’ll give it a try in the near future. Have a great day.

[Squinny]

ggpetrov said:

Squinny said:

Maybe try smaller batches than 2000 g and see what works best for what you want. I usually only make a batch of 250 g at most for when I’m testing if I like a product for myself. I have found I actually like a body cream better and find them longer lasting and include some butters with the oils like mango butter.
 Also for more slip perhaps add 1 % dimethicone. I make a nice cream for myself with Water phase 77% incl 8% glycerin and use  oil blend of macadamia and MCT along with mango and cocoa butter. For the emulsifier I use Olivem1000 at 5% and use Cetearyl Alc at 2.15% rather than Cetyl (makes for a thinner product for my formula). Also you can add the Niaciniamde in your cooldown stage (apparently you shouldnt use at temps above 70 degrees c. I find it dissloves easy at cooldown.
Or look at the ingredients that Aveeno use and try emulate. Glycerin is 2nd on their list of ingredients so maybe they use at higher % than your 5%. I find I can go to 10% depending on the formulation and doesnt leave my skin greasy. Hope that helps (or maybe makes you more confused!). Cheers

You should try Oliwax LC instead of cetyl / cetearyl alcohol. It doesn’t thicken the emulsion like them, but the haptics is gorgeous

Thanks I haven’t heard of this one previously (Love this forum) and I can source here and would like to try it soon - Would I use it at say 2% along with another the emulsifier (like OliveM1000) to replace the Cetyl or Cetearyl alcohol or can it be used alone? If alone what % would you recommend? 

[Squinny]

There is a paper called “Rate Studies on the Hydrolysis of Niacinamide” and
they used hydrochloric acid to perform the experiment in the acid region.  The study found that a 10% Niacinamide solution heated to around 89 degrees C and then
taken to a pH of below 4.5 with a STRONG acid did start to hydrolyse and form
Niacin and that this conversion was a first order reaction which it says basically
means it went from Niacinamide to Niacin without turning into anything else
first.  The study found that between pH 4.5-6 very little of this shifting occurred and in fact at pH 4.5 – 6 the half-life of
the solution was found to be 1000 days which probably means that the average cosmetic
formulator has little to worry about. So would be good if this is true.
I have formulated with Niacinamide at around pH 5 with no issues and also now add in my cool-down stage when doing emulsions as other info I have found out from a Cosmetic Chemist here in Australia said it should be added at temps below 70 degrees C. It would be good to hear what other real Chemist have to say ::smile:

[Squinny]

If it is meant to be a cooling massage oil why dont you use Peppermint Essential Oil rather than Tea Tree Oil (or a combo of Tea Tree with Peppermint to your usage rate of 1.5%). I find Peppermint Essential Oil has a definite cooling effect and smells better than Tea Tree too. Just a suggestion but make a small amount and see?

[Squinny]

Thanks Graillotion yes plan to use more TEC as discussed when I buy it. Rules in Australia very different to USA re alcohol due to our taxes and and laws for ‘home’ use. I just looked up Everclear (hadn’t heard of that before either!) and can buy but $50 for 200 ml so if the denatured stuff is good enough for my uses only $110 for 5 liters which I can share with a friend for her herbal extractions. Anyway I appreciate everyones advice and once I buy a few of the ingredients I need like the alcohol, TEC etc. I’ll have a play with some small batches of 50 ml or so and see what works best for me. Everything has been very useful to me and I’ve learn more about ingredients I hadn’t heard of until I joined this forum. Have a great day - sunny and 30 degrees C here today.

[Squinny]

Aveeno also use Oat Oil and Colloidal oatmeal which I use in some of my lotions and personally find soothing.

[Squinny]

Thanks very much for that Mark appreciate your help and time and the info on where to source the Deo active - I will look into. Have to see what exchange rates are and shipping costs though which is why I tend to buy mostly in Australia (where I am). The Ethanol I can buy here is this : Alcohol, Aqua (Water) , 0.25% Tertiary Butanol [Denaturant: To conform with Australian Taxation Office - Excise requirements] - would that be ok to use?

[Squinny]

Maybe try smaller batches than 2000 g and see what works best for what you want. I usually only make a batch of 250 g at most for when I’m testing if I like a product for myself. I have found I actually like a body cream better and find them longer lasting and include some butters with the oils like mango butter.
 Also for more slip perhaps add 1 % dimethicone. I make a nice cream for myself with Water phase 77% incl 8% glycerin and use  oil blend of macadamia and MCT along with mango and cocoa butter. For the emulsifier I use Olivem1000 at 5% and use Cetearyl Alc at 2.15% rather than Cetyl (makes for a thinner product for my formula). Also you can add the Niaciniamde in your cooldown stage (apparently you shouldnt use at temps above 70 degrees c. I find it dissloves easy at cooldown.
Or look at the ingredients that Aveeno use and try emulate. Glycerin is 2nd on their list of ingredients so maybe they use at higher % than your 5%. I find I can go to 10% depending on the formulation and doesnt leave my skin greasy. Hope that helps (or maybe makes you more confused!). Cheers

[Squinny]

Cool thanks Ozgirl (thought you mist be an Aussie too!) - I buy a lot of Ingredients from New Directions in Sydney so will look into. Cheers

[Squinny]

Sodium Caproyl/Lauroyl Lactyate - I dont think I can get this ingredient here in Oz either.

[Squinny]

Ammonium Glycyrrhizate is Licorice Root extract?

[Squinny]

Thanks guys so the ingredients listed for Weleda Sage Spray deo from what I can see are : Alcohol, Water, TEC, Fragrance, Sodium Caproyl/Lauroyl Lactyate, Sage Oil,Ammonium Glycyrrhizate (and the ingredients derives from the Oil).

Being a home formulator I dont have access here to Alcohol here in Australia (besides for drinking - ie Vodka etc or only Isopropyl alcohol 70%) - but if so what would be the approx ratios for their listed ingredients -especially the Alcohol/ Water % I assume would be around 95% but how much of that Alcohol and how much Water. I can source TEC here from 1 supplier. Cheers and thanks for your input - appreciate the advice.

[Squinny]

Ok cool thanks for that - New here so didnt know. Cheers

[Squinny]

pm? Sorry what does that stand for? and thanks for the advice on pH really appreciate that. 

[Squinny]

Hi Graillotion so do you have a formula /list of ingredients you recommend? And would like a formula that isnt irritating but effective at preventing odor to begin with. What is the ideal pH then for underarm use deo to stop odor and not be irritating? I want a spray not cream or stick if possible? I am happy to make an emulsion and more like a lotion if that works better. I am only making for my own use ( for fun with benefits!). Cheers

[Squinny]

Ahh that makes sense thanks so much. Does that apply to other formulations that dont use such ingredients as MgOH ? I have been looking at making a spray deodorant just using spray pump glass bottle (for own use) and formula I have so far is (Deo Concentrate is from Making Cosmetcis USA and INCI is Zinc ricinoleate, sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, tetrahydroxypropyl ethylenediamine) - Any suggestions or improvements would be great to hear
It does smell nice but again not sure how effective it is!)

Deo Concentrate (USA)	3.00%
Bergamot Floral Water	38.61%
Chamomile Water	30.00%
Aloe Vera 1x juice	16.00%
Polysorbate 20	5.00%
Plantaserv E	1.00%
Comfrey extract	2.50%
Calendula Extract	2.00%
Chamomile extract	1.21%
Citric Acid 40% solution to bring to pH 5.5 to 6	0.28%
Litsea Essential Oil	0.40%
Total	100.00%

[Squinny]

Hi - can I ask what pH a deodorant like this should be with Magnesium Hydroxide as I made one and found it very irritating after a few weeks use so I brought pH down on next batch to around 5.5 and it seems to work better as far as irritation goes but is it wrong to do this? I used a Citric Acid 40% solution to bring pH down as it was sitting at around 9% before I add the Citric Acid. 

[Squinny]

Hi I’m new to the forum and not a chemist just a hobbyist learning to make my own skin products mainly. I too am trying to make a nice hair conditioner an so far haven’t come close to the commercial ones I use. Looking at the ingredients for the one you like it has  Behenamidopropyl Dimethylamine and you are using BTMS-25 (Behentrimoium Methosulphate + Cetearyl Alcohol) so not sure of impact of different emulsifies here. Also the Glutamic Acid in your commercial one seems to be the humectant they use. 

FYI the one I made below which is ok but not great is this (Note that I put the BTMS-25 in heated water phase and I dont have an oil phase (formula is based on the place in Australia where I bought my BTMS-25 from)

Heated Water Phase
BTMS-25 emulsifier	5.00%
Distilled Water	65.00%
Lavender Water	19.70%
Gotu Kola extract (Glycerin based)	5.00%
Hydrolyzed Oats	1.50%
Panthanol DL powder	1.50%
Niacinamide powder	1.00%
Cool down phase
Liquid Germall plus	0.50%
Essential Oils - Lavender	0.30%
Vitamin E	0.50%
	100.00%

I also did another version for my partner which I had to throw out as after a few weeks smelt aweful (fishy and just yuk) and it contained lemmongrass essential oil rather than lavender and I used only distilled water not the lavender hydrosol) - so not sure if the lemongrass EO reacted with the BTMS 25 or what ? Also I noted that when the BTMS-25 gets too hot it smells fishy - is this normal? It seems ok (not fishy) when it cools down. I have had far more success with my skin creams lotions etc than my delving into Hair conditioners so woul dbe great to have a nice formula with ingredients I can source easily in Australia (not USA as too exxy for me now with exchange rates and shipping). Cheers  - Squinny
PS I have learnt so much form all you folks here already just skimming through various topics.