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HFekher said:

@Spinr Actually no hlb required in water based pomade cause it is not emulsion the emulsifiers are used to obtain adequat texture as ceteareth .

Hi Fekher, what about when there are waxes and butters in there, I ask as my formula includes clay and a small amount of butter and wax.

I noticed that once cooled it appears as if it is sweating the next day but this then disappears, so was wondering if it was the emulsification issues or mixing, or capping them too soon.

This formula does not have a low emulsifier, this got me thinking..

Ingredients: Beeswax, Cateareth 20,Wate, PEG40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Kaolin, PEG7 Glyceryl Cocoate, Candelilla Wax, Microcrystalline Wax, Polysorbate 60, Jojoba oil, Carnauba Wax, Phenoxyethanol, Sorbic Acid, Peppermint Oil, Lavender Oil, Tea tree Oil

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Hey King Roland

I have messed with clays for ages and found them difficult to get right, had numerous batches frothy, too thick on mixing, not the right texture, the list goes on.
I was always working to HLB or had those figures in mind for the oil phase and just couldn’t get them right.
What I did do however is increase ceteareth-20 to around 20%  and lowered wax percentage and increased my water phase with no oils or just a trace.
I use Peg 40 and Peg 7 and find using a humectant alongside glycerin helps stability and consistency for clays.
In terms of pouring, I cap them once they are cooled at room temperature (roughly after 4 hours from cooling) and have no issues and after 24 hours they stay stable with no hard top layer.
For small batch I use a paint stirrer attached to a drill (see pic), this works for me instead of a stick blender which creates air and bubbles for me.
I also had used 1% polysorbate 20 in the past and it made the formula too thin, instead I increased peg 7 slightly.
Hope this helps.

Cheers

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Hi chemicialmatt

Thanks for the reply, I have removed stearic acid and replaced with glyceryl stearate/glyceryl stearate citrate (Lamecreme) as a test for now until a delivery of Glyceryl Oleate arrives.
I have done HLB calculations on a new oil phase of 47.5 but still find a higher amount of emulsifier is needed to get it right, so on test I used 10.8 Ewax nf and 4.7 lamacreme and it came out good, however a bit sorbet looking still.
I find Ewax nf a lot more harder to use than Ewax BP.

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Thanks for the replies guys, appreciated.

Okay, I want to go down the nonionic route.
I have found the HLB numbers separately for the oils and waxes etc and calculated their percentage in the formula from a total oil phase of 56%

The final HLB required is 10.71

However, based on a simple rule of thumb at 25% of the oil phase the HLB would be 14

So a big difference, I should go by the proper calculation correct?

So with Ewax NF having both Cetearyl Alcohol and Polysorbate 60 with HLB numbers of 15.5 and 14.9 respectively do I need to add a low emulsifier to balance it out such as glyceryl stearate (nonionic), (HLB number 3. as Belassi suggests, and if so at what percentage? 
Do I add this low HLB emulsifier in to the suggested HLB requirement total of 10.71 or is it an additional to increase the ratio of emulsifier?

Or should EWAX NF simply do the job without any additional emulsifier?
Many formulas on the market use Ewax NF and Peg 40 HCO but there both high HLB so why is it best to use a high and low HLB?

Sorry if it sounds like waffle but need to know please.

Thanks

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Hi Das

Thanks for the reply.
I want to change as Sodium Lauryl Sulphate has so much scare mongering on social media that it would no doubt affect sales.

I was using 8% Ewax BP and tried the formula below with 8% Ewax NF but it comes out more with a sorbet appearance.
I have tried a higher percentage of Ewax NF at 10.6% as this is 25% of the oil ratio but still not right. I have also tried adding a low HLB emulsifier (Polyglyceryl-4 Oleate) to experiment with to try and balance it out but still not right.
I still don’t understand why HCO peg 40 is used in the same formula with Ewax NF either, especially when it has a HLB number of 15 basically the same as HCO peg 40?
Do I just need to use one emulsifier such as Ewax NF and reformulate or also incorporate cetereath 20? 

Obviously I am not a chemist but have a passion for this, being honest I have briefed 3 chemists already over the last year to make these unothordox pomades, waited ages for the samples and find they cannot do it, their samples are worse than mine so it is not easy and I think these guys who make these products and get them to market deserve more recognition as I feel chemists get annoyed as they are more natural based and chemists like to use synthetics.

These are the ingredients.

Aqua

Beeswax

Stearic acid

Mango Butter

Cetearyl Alcohol and Polysorbate 60

Shea butter

Castor Seed Oil
Hydrogenated Castor Oil
Carnauba) Wax

Candelilla wax

Sunflower oil

Grapeseed oil

Argan Oil

Vegetable glycerin

Vitamin E

Phenoxyethanol and Ethylhexylglycerin

Essential oil blend

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