[SlingerD]

ketchito said:

@SlingerD First, I’d add the Lactic acid once the emulsion has been formed, in the cool down phase. Then, add some base (like NaOH solution) to bring the pH closer to neutral (that would help convert Stearic acid into Sodium stearate which is an emulsifier, and stabilize the SSL in your CreamMix). Also, 2% of essential oil could be too high to be added post emulsion.

Thanks @ketchito ! I will play around with the pH and reduce my post emulsion oil additions and see what happens. 

[SlingerD]

Sent you a message!

[SlingerD]

I just recently got a sample of this to play with from 3V sigma after seeing positive comments from @chemicalmatt . Pretty easy to work with. I’ve been using it for thickening/stabilizing a gel cream for a customer, although the formula has a low electrolyte content ( < 0.5%) so I cannot truly answer your question. I have been using a small amount of GSC as a co-emulsifier and cetyl alcohol as a builder and it has held up well so far. This recipe has a decent size oil load with some heavier players, so ive been dropping it in during cooldown, but i’m curious to see how it reacts when dropped in pre emulsion. Good luck! Would be happy to send you their spec sheets/sample recipes/etc I received from the rep

[SlingerD]

thank you, @PhilGeis ! this article helped a lot. still need to learn my functional groups “like multiplication tables”… 

[SlingerD]

Ok i see. I have made an incorrect assumption about the connection between acetic acid and dehydroacetic acid.

Just read through a full pdf of this article https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0740002009001798 , which gave me some insight comparing dehydroacetic acid and sorbic acids (and other weak acids) and their MIC at pH 5.0 and 6.0 with two different levels of innoculation. Seems promising (at least in this study) that dehydroacetic acid can perform as well as sorbic acid in the given pH range I am dealing with in my formula. 

My lack of chemistry background is confusing me in terms of understanding a relationship between pKa and antimicrobial acitivity - if there is one. The study listed above hints to the fact that levels of both the dissociated and non-dissociated acid forms are relevant to its antimicrobial activity, but clearly, certain weak acids are highly pH dependent for their effectiveness. Is there some relevant reading you can point me in the direction of? Although, this level of study may be above my brain’s pay grade…   

[SlingerD]

Thanks @PhilGeis ! I appreciate the knowledge. It looks as though (from some quick, dirty, not long enough studies on google scholar) that the pKa of acetic acid is slightly higher than that of sorbic acid. In theory, under exactly identical conditions, would this mean acetic acid will have a higher level of activity (although still below 50%) at a pH of 5.0 in comparison to sorbic acid? 

[SlingerD]

MakingCosmetics operates under a cGMP certification while LotionCrafter doesn’t- hence, much more rigorous standards for manufacturing conditions and facility operations. They are usually my go to, but lotioncrafter carries some products that MC does not, so there’s that. 

and yeah, i was pretty bummed to see that MYO got bought out by WholesaleSuppliesPlus. Honestly, WSP isn’t the worst, but lead times are always long, so plan accordingly.  i used to order certain containers and raw materials from WSP, but have shifted to different suppliers with better lead times and more diverse offerings. 

[SlingerD]

I like to believe room environment plays a part as well. When I can keep my space at 70 degrees F with minimal variance throughout the pouring and cooling process, it helped a lot with temperamental soy waxes. When pouring beeswax products, I always pour below 160F, but my beeswax products are only 20-30% wax. Might also help to immediately place poured containers into a freezer. Part of the issue is uneven cooling since the waxes in contact with the cooler container walls will change state before the inner area. 

[SlingerD]

@MarkBroussard noted and will do. Thanks for the help! 

[SlingerD]

@MarkBroussard thanks mark!

1) Yes, I am aware of the 510k regulations for medical devices. I am a lab tech for a CBD manufacturing company and we are working with a client who already sells vibrators on the market and has a non CBD lubricant already for sale. We are getting ready to transition into a new construction, GMP certified facility by mid summer and should be in good position to fit the criteria. I like playing in my little at-home lab as well and making some concoctions for personal use and so I can add some relevant knowledge to our chemist who is leading the project. 

2) I will look into contacting Kazmira. Thanks for the suggestion. At work, we have been using a product called VesiSorb, which frankly I have found to be a pain and, even with a lecithin addition, is not as great for these emulsions as they claim and has trouble holding oil loads over 2% based on our SOPs. I’ve  been planning an attempt to concoct my own water soluble blend with gum Arabic and lecithin, but now there are some quality products on the market and my time may be better spent working on something else.. 

3) thanks for the heads up on glycerin. Adding the BG made a huge difference in feel and glide and seems to be my primary humectant in this case. Glycerin itself seems to be a claim ingredient these days… 

[SlingerD]

@vitalys the CBD oil addition is a request of the customer. It can be an excellent analgesic and have mild numbing properties and is very trendy in a variety of retail settings currently.

Also to note, I have been using a distilled oil which is not an isolated molecule and thus it contains a variety of different compounds besides the cannabidiol, such as phospholipids, waxes, other cannabinoids, etc. I made the assumption this oil needs a relatively strong solubilizing system for it to properly hold in solution. I am no chemist or expert about anything… just a passionate soap and candle guy that has been reading this forum for a while ????

[SlingerD]

@vitalys thanks for the heads up. I havent a had chance to do any direct stability testing to it in my at-home work area yet other than putting a sample in a 20ml clear glass vial and leaving at room temp. One week later, the viscosity is still stable and nothing has separated yet. I need to do a lot more observation and challenges and checking baseline numbers like pH and watching it for change. 

I’ve bought a couple products on amazon and the like with many positive reviews, and they use similar ingredients although less solubilizers and make it to market and am wondering what they do that makes it work.

[SlingerD]

Am I shooting myself in the foot by using a cationic in a formula intended to be a lubricant? Could its good film forming properties and possible electrostatic interaction with body hair contribute to a tacky, unpleasant effect on the user?

[SlingerD]

Thank you @chemicalmatt for the reassurance. Was definitely a little nervous about this… I would like to bring this product to market soon, but will hold off until i have some more confidence in its shelf life and stability. After seeing improvements with at home challenge testing, planning to send to a 3rd party lab for confirmation. 

[SlingerD]

Thanks! I’ll give that a shot 

[SlingerD]

ascophyllum nodosum* -oops! But, do I need to add more emulsifier to keep the water phase from separating? What are the usual culprits that lead to phase separation?