[SashaHayz]

Currently don’t have that surfactant. Do you know if it would work well with Capb and decyl glucoside ? 

[SashaHayz]

chemicalmatt said:

What @Perry said, but I suspect you may still need a rheology stabilizer in there anyway with that APG. Try hydroxymethylcellulose or polyaquaternium-10 or an acrylate copolymer. Also, Olivem 300 is redundant with PEG-7 glyceryl cocoate as a refatting agent. Choose one or the other and save some coin. 
  

I never had good luck using polyquat 10 in prior formulas it usually separates. For this formula what percent polyquat10 would u recommend and is there an order of addition /procedure u recommend ?

[SashaHayz]

Perry said:

To start, use less honeyquat, less panthenol, less glycerin, and get rid of the castor oil.

Ok I will use less of those. Also Its suppose to be a castor oil shampoo so I have to use some amount, I will decrease castor oil to a small amount. Any other suggestions to stabilize the formula? 

[SashaHayz]

ketchito said:

@SashaHayz If you add Cationic guar as a premix, try to acidify the premix with some Citric acid or EDTA, so the polymer swells properly (you’ll see a change in color and a high increase in viscosity). If you don’t do that, the polymer won’t be able to fully expand and interact properly with your surfactants once in your formula.

It worked thank you so much ! 

[SashaHayz]

Paprik said:

Yep, try it. 
I would measure the pH after adding the aloe juice. The one I had was really acidic and brought my pH to around 4. Try to have it close to neutral before adding cationic guar gum, so it has time to be properly dispersed in the water phase. This is my thinking. 

Try it and let us know.

It worked, I don’t have the clumping anymore   :smiley: . Would the same procedure work with polyquaternium 10 ? 

[SashaHayz]

Dtdang said:

Hello everyone! 

I appreciate and thank you in advance…..

HotAct

Can i ask where sells hotact is small quantity ? 

[SashaHayz]

Nicky said:

Water 70%
Aloe Vera juice 6%
Avocado butter 4%
Shea butter 4%
Macadamia oil 3%
Grapeseed oil 3%
Glyceryl stearate SE 5%
Cetearyl alcohol 3%
Vitamin e oil 1%
Euxyl PE 9010 1%

Could be multiple reasons. Was your hair clean before applying the cream? If not your cream could be interacting negatively with other products on your hair causing the white flakes.
Also it  could be  you didnt melt down your oil phase enough. Also your emulsifier might not be robust enough for that much oils and butters.  

[SashaHayz]

Paprik said:

Ok, this changes situation. You only said Guar gum. This is non-ionic gum.
Hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride is cationic guar derivative. And there’s a big difference. 
So, Hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride does not need to be slurried. It goes straight into the water. You only need to acidify the water so it hydrates. 
But, add that at the end. The gum should hydrate with all water available from the formula. As Decyl Glucoside is (usually) 50-52% active, the rest is water. CAPB is also 68-70% water .. I don’t think you add too much of it. 

So I think what happened is, you let the gum swell with some water and after you add some extra, which was not “grabbed” by the gum. If that makes sense. So that causes the separation. 

Regarding the oils, you need to solubilize them first. So you have to premix your lipids with solubilizer separately until homogenous and after slowly add to water phase in small increments and wait until water clears. 

Hope it makes sense? Let me know if not Good luck

Thank you this help a lot ! Just so I’m clear of the order of addition…
Step 1 pour out water ( water ,glycerin, aloe juice)
Step 2 Add my surfactants to the water phase and mix
Step 3 Adjust pH to below 6
Step 4 Mix oil in solublizer until homogeneous and slowly add to the mixture
Step 5 Add cationic guar gum and mix
Step 6 Add preservative and crothix

[SashaHayz]

Paprik said:

Why are you adding the guar gum anyway? 
Try it without, only with Crothix and see how it goes. 

I don’t see a problem if you really premix it well with glycerin and add that to a water and slightly acidify it. . And let it hydrate for some time. Unless it does something bad with the Crothix. 

Also, a note, reduce Panthenol input to 0.01%. It won’t have any benefits anyway and it is wasting your money. Your main humectant would be the glycerin. It is mainly a marketing ingredient and it will be washed away. 

One more note, I am not sure if you have enough solubilize for your lipids. Castor oil is hard to solubilize and you have also 0.5% of fragrance which is basically free and may cause stability issues. 

Main reason for adding cationic guar gum is because it has good conditioning properties and it gives the shampoo a nice feel. 
I think my problem with clumping may be because I was using decyl glucoside at 14 % I decided to drop it to 4% and put in 10% SLES and 13% CAPB. What method would you use to incorporate cationic guar gum with these surfactants? 

I was also seeing separation of the castor oil as well so I dropped castor oil to 0.5 %. I’m hoping the peg 7 at 2% will be able to keep it solubilised. I removed panthenol as well because it really wasn’t needed.

[SashaHayz]

Main reason for adding cationic guar gum is because it has good conditioning properties and it gives the shampoo a nice feel.
I think my problem with clumping may be because I was using decyl glucoside at 14 % I decided to drop it to 4% and put in 10% SLES and 13% CAPB. What method would you use to incorporate cationic guar gum with these surfactants? 

I was also seeing separation of the castor oil as well so I dropped castor oil to 0.5 %. I’m hoping the peg 7 at 2% will be able to keep it solubilised. I removed panthenol as well because it really wasn’t needed. 

[SashaHayz]

Ichlas said:

I am developing a body wash formula using these surfactants:

14.25% SLS

2% Cocamide DEA

1.8% Lauryl Hydroxysultaine

what do you guys think about this formula? I’ve been hearing a lot of concerns about SLS being irritating to the skin. Is it not safe to use SLS in long term usage?

I personally have been using this formula for 2 weeks and haven’t been feeling any discomfort on my skin.

SLS is safe just dont use too much because it can be a bit irritating at higher percentages. 

[SashaHayz]

ketchito said:

I’m with @evchem2 on this. I’d go even a bit lower than 6, closer to 5. And giveit some good mixing before adding surfactants.

I tried what @evchem2 said and it helped but now instead of getting a big clump in the product I’m seeing small fish eyes. I’m wondering if its the amount of decyl glucoside that causing the problem.

[SashaHayz]

Camel said:

SashaHayz said:

I tried an experiment similar with Coco betaine and decal glucoside I found that over night the guar gum formed a clump in the bottle. Any idea why ?

Can you share your procedure for making the product? Decyl Glucoside (and other glucosides) can be quite difficult to thicken and I would recommend using an anionic surfactant instead. 

I disperse the guar gum in glycerin then add to the water phase then i mix. Then a add my surfactant phase and mix. Then i adjust the pH and bottle it. Overnight I see clumps or fish eyes in the product. I had the same issue using polyquaternium 10. 

Decly Glucoside	14
Coco Betaine	13
Castor oil	0.5
PEG 7 Glyceryl Cocoate	2
Water Phase
Water	53.2
Aloe Vera Juice	10
Glycerine	2
guar gum	0.3
Additives
Liquid Germal Plus	0.5
crothix	3.5
Panthenol	0.5
Fragrance	0.5

[SashaHayz]

Csears said:

Camel said:

Here’s my opinion:

Remove the oils and clay from the formula. The job of a shampoo is to remove oil and dirt from the scalp and adding oils to a shampoo will only reduce the efficacy of the surfactants. 

Remove the glycerin, panthenol, and oat protein. These will simply be washed off and rinsed down the drain. They will not have an effect on your hair in a shampoo.

Remove the cetearyl and cetyl alcohols. They are making your shampoo too thick and are also not necessary in a shampoo. 

Your revised formula would look something like this:

• Water - 68%
• Decyl Glucoside - 20% (might consider a better option)
• Coco Betaine - 10%
• Optiphen - 1%
• Guar Gum - 0.5%
• Tea Tree - 0.25%
• Lemongrass - 0.25%

Active Surfactant Matter: around 13.6 

Also, when sharing your formula, I recommend using percentages, rather than grams. 🙂

If you want to add a conditioning element to your shampoo, consider polyquaternium-10 at 0.5%.

I also recommend swapping out decyl glucoside for a different (perhaps anionic) surfactant, as I personally did not like using it in my experiments. See how you like it, first. 

Thank you so much for your response. I will try these suggestions. ????

I tried an experiment similar with Coco betaine and decal glucoside I found that over night the guar gum formed a clump in the bottle. Any idea why ?

[SashaHayz]

Csears said:

Hi! Thanks so much for responding! I mixed the guar gum with the glycerine before adding it to the water phase. 

Let me know how it goes. I make products for afro hair as well. I’m also working on a natural shampoo but my issue is the opposite its too thin.

[SashaHayz]

I’m thinking the cetearyl alcohol and cetyl alcohol may be whats making your product super thick. With only 1.5 % oils do you need that much emulsifier / stabilizer ? You can also try dropping the guar gum to 0.3 % … Also what is your process for incorporating the guar gum?  

[SashaHayz]

evchem2 said:

you may need to adjust your pH to slightly acidic before you add surfactants to let the guar fully hydrate

So adjust to about pH 6 ? or does it need to be lower. 

[SashaHayz]

Abdullah said:

Mix surfactant with water, adjust ph, heat to 70°c, melt Peg 150, add it and keep temperature above 70 and use high shear mixer, when mixed cool it down and add cool down ingredients. 

Thank you, I will try this method

[SashaHayz]

1Armand2 said:

Nacl or Crothix works best in my shampoo! 

Unfortunately decyl glucoside doesn’t thicken with NaCl. I have some crothix I’ll try that. 

[SashaHayz]

Abdullah said:

Write the percentage and procedure.

Decyl Glucoside has pH above 10 and looks like you don’t have anything to adjust pH with.

Surfactant phase 
decyl glucoside 15%
CAPB 12%
Castor oil 1.5%
Peg 7 glyceryl cocoate 2%
Peg 150 2%
water phase 
water 
glycerine 2%
polyquaternium 10 0.5 %

Cool down 
Panthenol 2 %
preservative 0.5
citric acid to adjust pH

what I’ve been doing is to heat the surfactant phase to melt the peg 150 then take if off the heat and add the water phase. When it gets to 40 C I add cool down phase and adjust the  pH. The peg 150 dissolves while the mixture is hot but has it cools down it clumps up