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  • Aspergillus niger exists - and is not the fungus used in the PET challenge test.  That is A. brasiliensis. 
    We are exposed constantly to mycotoxins in grain and nuts and products made from  them. Risk assessment of topical exposure  via a cosmetic is not going to be an issue. 

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 10, 2021 at 4:36 am in reply to: How preservatives kill microbes in cosmetics

    You need a preservative system in addition to your active - Piroctone olamine.

    Assume you’re developing an antidandruff shampoo. This would be a drug product in some countries - have you addressed drug product regulations in your country?

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 9, 2021 at 10:27 am in reply to: How preservatives kill microbes in cosmetics

    Not much information on specifics -  that they work is enough for their suppliers and customers. Likely they have multiple killing functions, one as vitalys said re membranes.  

  • To your original question - all those effects can result from contamination with any bug.

    As Pharma said - immunocompromised folks are at risk to microbes like these.  The risk is serious as some folks have died from infections they got from contaminated cosmetics.  Healthy folks can get limited infection but some infections from contaminated mascara resulted in blindness.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 9, 2021 at 9:47 am in reply to: Which organisms will grow most in this lotion formula?

    Abdullah said:

    @PhilGeis preserved. My point was to blend preservative that is strongest against which organisms. 

    I see. You need preservation that is strong against each of the bugs.

  • PET - as in USP 51 (and its mindless reproduction in EP and ISO) are all based on old protocol (~50 years) for drug products. Cosmetics were not considered in  its development.  Burkholderia cepacia was recognized as such a cosmetic risk in the CTFA test. 
    The PET is a poor test.  It is consistent in response but not validated to any quality endpoint for cosmetics. Most major companies use their own test that includes cepacia and other bugs -  others use the PET  but with more stringent pass fail criteria  (e.g. no recovery day 7).

    Pharma is partially correct.   Bacterial and yeast isolates were from clinical sources but have been in the lab for many decades - staph 6538 for almost 100 years.  There is no Aspergillus niger - 16404 is A. brasiliensis isolated from the blueberries and has no record of carcinogenesis or aflatoxin production.  That some other fungi produce alfatoxin is irrelevant to cosmetic quality.  Tho 6538 still can infect skin if inoculated heavily - these are fairly innocuous bugs.

    PET is better than nothing but it is not validated to consumer or manufacturing risks.  Some manufacturers have developed and validated their own test (e.g. https://aem.asm.org/content/53/8/1827.short).

  • Potentially all product effects for each bug - you can’t break out individual bugs for specific effect.    Most health risk for staph and pseudomonas. 

    The most common bug is prob Burkholderia cepacia (complex) - can result in all the product effects and is a health risk for immunocompromised folks.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 8, 2021 at 2:11 pm in reply to: ‘Cosmetic’ products for cats and dogs - Restrictions?

    Pharma said:

    PhilGeis said:

    Nasties?  Please rememnber preservatives control “nasties.”

    You misunderstand me. What I mean is that there’s a difference between proper skin tolerable preservation and stuff which I don’t even like in technical materials such as isothiazolinones. Sadly, these are ‘okay’ in pet products because animals are considered ‘objects’ in most legal regards.

    Isothiazolinones have been used (typically as primary preservatives) in surfactant and hair conditioner products globally since ~1990.   Tho’ some folks screwed up when 1st introduced, not used in leave one but for  limited use of one around turn of century that provoked sensitization and was withdrawn.  Not aware animals are more at risk than human “objects” exposed in historic use.  Are you referring to use in leave-on products? Can you elaborate?

    “Nasties” are the bugs against which we preserve.  Casual slandering preservatives is the practice of uninformed activists that diminishes our ability to protect consumers and their pets.  If a preservative does not satisfy safety in that use, let’s please address it in objective unemotional terms that do not jeopardize applications where it may have both efficacy and safety in use.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 8, 2021 at 1:54 pm in reply to: Which organisms will grow most in this lotion formula?

    Unpreserved?
    Ask which drunk gets the 1st beer when “drinks are on the house” announced - whatever bugs gets to it 1st. 

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 8, 2021 at 1:50 pm in reply to: Euxyl PE 9010 use in water based products

    YasmineR said:

    Thank you for replying! 

     If your surfactant is anionic and you have enough, you prob don’t need an antifungal preservative.

    Could you please clarify this part? What does an anionic surfactant have to do with antifungal activity? 

    Literature, FDA/EU recall and extensive experience find shampoos and other anionic surfactant products (esp. with EDTA) intrinsically resistant to fungal (esp. mold) contamination. 

    Euxyl 9010 is prob good for shampoo but is not a “great all-around preservative”.  Alone, it leaves a gap in antifungal efficacy for relevantly susceptible products.  

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 7, 2021 at 9:52 pm in reply to: Anhydrous formula question about preservation

    Of course it gets wet - that doesn’t mean you need to preserve a film of water.  You can’t preserve water pools around the bar,.  Think your wasting your money on preservation.  
    Does the get get mushy?

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 7, 2021 at 10:04 am in reply to: Anhydrous formula question about preservation

    Is this a bar?

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 6, 2021 at 9:06 pm in reply to: ‘Cosmetic’ products for cats and dogs - Restrictions?

    Nasties?  Please rememnber preservatives control “nasties.”

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 6, 2021 at 1:51 pm in reply to: % NaBenzoate, KSorbate? Anhydrous Formula

    I’m just a micro guy so hope others Perry, Microformulation) can address product formulation realities.  Unless it brings a substantial bioburden or hygroscopicity elevates Aw too high, I’m ok.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 6, 2021 at 1:45 pm in reply to: ‘Cosmetic’ products for cats and dogs - Restrictions?

    and watch your claims.  FDA does not regulate pet “grooming aids” but does regulate pet drug products.
    The animal counterpart of a cosmetic is commonly referred to as a “grooming aid.” The Act defines a cosmetic as pertaining only to human use (21 U.S.C. 321(i)). Therefore, products intended for cleansing or promoting attractiveness of animals are not subject to FDA control. However, if such products are intended for any therapeutic purpose or if they are intended to affect the structure or function of the animal, they are subject to regulation as new animal drugs under the Act.
    https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/resources-you/animal-products-fda-regulates#Grooming

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 6, 2021 at 1:28 pm in reply to: how long can bacteria live for without moisture?

    By FD&C definition, cosmetic ingredients are effectively cosmetics and  a cosmetic produced with an adulterated ingredient is adulterated.  Excessive/OOS micro counts establish adulteration - that they might die off over time (or the infamous - the preservative will kill it off)  is irrelevant - adulterated is forever . a

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 4, 2021 at 11:17 am in reply to: Phenoxyethanol and sodium benzoate incompatibility

    Their info prob came from Dave Steinberg’s book - Preservatives for Cosmetics.  This is a very good book.  https://www.amazon.com/Preservatives-Cosmetics-David-C-Steinberg/dp/193263312X/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=steinberg+preservatives&qid=1620126997&sr=8-4

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 3, 2021 at 10:38 am in reply to: Phenoxyethanol and sodium benzoate incompatibility

    There is potential.  Think you’re referring to info in Steinberg’s book.  Dave’s info is excellent and does report there is potential. compromise.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 2, 2021 at 3:58 pm in reply to: Storing cosmetic ingredients

    Check with specific suppliers - be aware, some raw materials are not physically stable at low temperature.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 2, 2021 at 10:20 am in reply to: Euxyl PE 9010 use in water based products

    Think you’re wise to study labels of products similar to those you’re developing.  Major companies have access to preservative testing adequate to try different combinations in formulas.  Presuming this is a limiting factor for you, try to follow their lead.  But you’ll still need to confirm efficacy.

    Suggest you have limited confidence in claims of broad spectrum activity - e.g.  9010 alone is not an adequate preservative vs fungi (yeast and mold).  Do not consider reports of inactivation absolute, and there are plenty of substrates  (food) in formulas for bugs to eat when preservation fails.

    1% is more than you need for phenoxyethanol - suggest +/- 0.5%.   9010 is ~90% phenoxyethanol.  If your surfactant is anionic and you have enough, you prob don’t need an antifungal preservative.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 2, 2021 at 1:44 am in reply to: Phenoxyethanol and sodium benzoate incompatibility

    I’d run an AET to see.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 1, 2021 at 11:21 am in reply to: Sodium benzoate vs benzoic acid efficacy

    Benzoic acid solubility can be an issue.  it’s much less soluble in  water than the sodium benzoate.  Other than that, there is no difference.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    April 30, 2021 at 9:49 am in reply to: Preservative selection for shampoo

    Effectively. 
    But to make it complicated - formaldehyde is a gas and formalin is a saturated solution of that gas.  The gas hydrated in solution as methylene glycol. 

    One more that you need to consider.  Formalin includes methanol -maybe 10%.  Please take that into consideration

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    April 30, 2021 at 9:43 am in reply to: Sodium benzoate vs benzoic acid efficacy

    Other than the lesser concentration of the ion due to the sodium salt, there is effectively no difference - assuming you obtain solution of addition.   It’s a pH driven equilibrium.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    April 29, 2021 at 3:03 pm in reply to: Preservative selection for shampoo

    Right - DMDm Hydantoin at 2000-2500 ppm usually gave < 500 ppm free formaldehyde.  “Free” is important.  

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