[PhilGeis]

I’d not trust anything but your own data -includng that this chemical mixture is effective as preservative.

[PhilGeis]

Iwana said:

Yes I agree with you. In use test is important factor. But does that effect the stability or only the PET or microbial ?

My co worker today said that the Accelerated Stability test is not good enough. As only when air enters into the product do we actually know if the product is stable.
Because again my co worker said that it is not a must to do that. He feels that only way to know product is stabile is to again check how the product will act when pumping it out over a period of time in exposer to air.

Think your coworker is mislead by the PAO BS.  Air is already present in the package.   

[PhilGeis]

Gordof makes an excellent point reagrding functionality.  In-use testing is also important to understanding if your preservative system as qualified actually works for consumers.    Woukd be a good idea esp. for those using USP 51, a [pretty [oor asseassment device for cosmetcs.

[PhilGeis]

Please share the data. 

[PhilGeis]

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf5063588
Reports quats ala GSE in Leucidal.  

[PhilGeis]

To be countable, prob spores - and no.  If you can’t see 1000/g, you’ll not see 100 or fewer.

[PhilGeis]

Extvolat said:

Physicist_Formulator

Dear Physicist_Formulator, if you have any questions about our raw materials (Pine Extvolat), then you should also ask us to get more complete information. How do you think))? We will be happy to answer all your questions so that you have a more complete picture of Pine Extvolat.

There are no relevant data on  your website.  On wnat basis do you claim “self-preserving”?  Please be aware, this is a safety claim - consumers have been blinded and even died from infections resulting from contaminated cosmetics.
What aree your data?

[PhilGeis]

Abdullah said:

Pharma said:

Maybe, maybe not. Some microbes aren’t visible at way higher amounts, don’t produce neither smell nor gas… just think about yoghurt. You wouldn’t know it’s spoiled milk if you didn’t know what yoghurt actually is.

What about mold? At what amount of contamination it can be visible by eyes? 

Or the other way, if we can see the mold by eyes, what would be the minimum cfu/g of mold in that product? 

You can  seemold if it grows sufficiently on the surface.    Not sure what you mean by minimum - it’s addressed by the same numerical quality limit.

The concept of cfu is not a good one for mold - mycelial fungi.  The cells do not separate so one cfu could represent 19’s-100’s of cells.

[PhilGeis]

If ypur stbility samples (passing USP 51) were at significantly higher pH, you would repeat.

[PhilGeis]

To the point - for the great majoriy of product types, production with proper controls should deliver products with no detectable microorganisms.

[PhilGeis]

You’re correct. Stability (PET) indirectly addresses the chemical stability of the preservative system.  Opening/closing/pumping is largely irrelevant to chemical stability - I’m familair with only one preservative that might be sensitive.
The stupidity of PAO takes this to the extreme.  - stability doesn’t start until the package is opened.

[PhilGeis]

titer can be 10E6+ cfu/g with or without a preservative and can offer no product change  - or discolor, stink and slime up, break emulsions, swell packages, grow as colonies on and in, etc.

not aware of minimal infective dose - depends on the microbe and application.  

[PhilGeis]

Think 0.5% phenoxy is enough.  The others are marginal - you need something better targeting fungi.

[PhilGeis]

really need to establish PET

[PhilGeis]

Do not presume you need less due to MIC.   You should use a generally effective level in each application.

[PhilGeis]

SKII from Procter & Gamble from the early 80’s has a yeast ferment 

[PhilGeis]

Assume you’re bnpt in US.

[PhilGeis]

You need something of reliable efficacy versus Gram negative bacteria.  Organic acids are not at any pH.

[PhilGeis]

Probiotic survival at titer is a major issue for any application.  In a (preserved) cosmetic, it’s problematic.
Advantage?  Assuming yoy’ll not pusruse some measyrable endpoint - sales hype.

[PhilGeis]

“Natural” is as meaningless/false as many such claimed combinations are “broad spectrum”.   Geogard ultra is prob on eof the worst.  Please forget it.

Organic acid(s)/Benzyl alcohol/Chelator at your pH may work.  Benzyl should be 5000+ppm plus.    Run a PET and stability.

[PhilGeis]

Good grief.  

[PhilGeis]

It’ll be on msds

[PhilGeis]

No - it’s also supplied at ~10%

[PhilGeis]

Abdullah said:

@ozgirl no i didn’t read the MSDS of formalin because our local suppliers don’t provide those materials. 

Thanks for the file. 

Do not use any material whose supplier offers no MSDS.  Here;s an msds https://www.mchem.co.nz/site/mchem/MSDS/FORMALIN%2037%20PERCENT%20MSDS.PDF

[PhilGeis]

Bill_Toge 
That closely related compounds have no efficacy is no proof, strong or otherwise) of bacterial “attempt to ingest” as some controlling mechanism.  Where are the compelling data?
Formaldehyde releasers maintain 100-200 ppm formaldehyde - an effective level with or without bacteria.  One can can temporarily recued  that level by dialysis and it will be reestablished in a day or so.
Parabens are sensitive to esterases - why so poorly effective vs. Gram negative that often proceed to degrade the rest of the molecule.  These are extracellular - as are esterases in skin that also degrade the parabens.