PhilGeis
Forum Replies Created
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What is the stabilizing salt(s) in each?
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skin cream with 3 ingredients? can you say what they are?
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Excellent example of ChatGPT is garbage. Worrying about mold in shampoo is a waste of time.
Shampoos and surfactant products in general very , very rarely suffer mold contamination. Benzoate is not used in shampoos for mold, it’s for bacteria and its interact with surfactants in that regard increases efficacy beyond expectations.
I know some feel the combination of benzoate with sorbate facilitates shampoo preservation. ‘ve not seen this - in my experience benzoate/benzyl alcohol is superior.
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These are on the high side BUT, within the boundaries of safety (per established ceilings and HRIPT if you can access), there is no “too much preservative”. Folks here work under the technical cover of USP 51-type testing that merely tells that a preservative effect is there - not that it’s enough. Be assured that every cosmetic recalled passed that test and prob with complete kill.
Some pharma micro folks titrate their systems to just pass USP 51 effectively assuming a safety role. To my perspective this is absolute BS. I hope none here follow this stupid practice.
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Why do you want to autoclave?
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describe formula and package
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formula, pH, package
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The functional complaint would be infection rather than discomfort/irritation per se. Relevant microbial toxins would probably not have an effect topically so any perceived effect would need infection.
There are data in context of leave on context products and “normal” folks, but not much of anything for rinse off. In context of substantial immunocompromise, it was ~2 days. https://academic.oup.com/jid/article-abstract/158/3/655/2190564
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Are you sure you need a preservative for a shampoo bar? any idea the Aw?
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This is not a good idea. Water is the single most significant source of contamination in manufacturing, and we take great pains to maintain its microbiological and chemical purity. However, we don’t have this with most tap water that typically includes pseudomonads like Pseudomonas aeruginosa - one of the most common causes of cosmetic recalls.
This practice applied in hospitals has resulted ion the deaths of vulnerable folks. https://academic.oup.com/jid/article-abstract/158/3/655/2190564
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Preserve the powder - assume concerned re. mold growth under humidity. Parabens might be a better choice. This is something you prob try to determine on your own.
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Selenium is more effective than ZPT, partially because it deposits so well. So well, It doesn’t need help.
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Not all are sensitized - esp. at 3 ppm.
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Lower EDTA concentration to 0.1-0.2%
Suggest adding preservation vs fungi and Gram positive bacteria.
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surfactant-based
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No. I’m not aware that cocoglucoside surfactants have the same interaction with benzoate as SLS, etc.
Think benzoate alone is not enough and you do need EDTA in any case.
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Pump dispensing product reduces risk - esp. if non-suck back mechanism. Some folks who have critical control of all manufacturing risks use simplified preservative systems looking only to mold contamination risk.
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Packaging controls risk of exposure, esp. water (Gram neg) exposure.
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To the 15 ppm question - the initial intro of Kathon had many using the stuff at 15 ppm and greater in general cosmetics - leave on and rinse off.
EU Cosmetic Directive ceiling initially was 30 ppm for all cosmetic products - a level the supplier Rohm & Haas had shown by extensive testing to be nonsensitizing. However, sensitization became an issue - possibly because folks used it at greater levels. Driven the de Groot publication and the North American Contact Derm Soc. per CIR, the ceiling was lowered to 15 ppm for rinse off and the preservative was later eliminated for use in leave on products.
Wonder that ChatGPT didn’t see this.
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You don’t need to autoclave or sterilize - need clean and dry material
For bottles and caps
- control your receipts - exclude bottles e.g. used for motor oil, garden pesticides, etc.
- clean completely - same for all whether you see residue or not - remove all cleaning product residue
- rinse with ethanol 70% and let drain and dry
- cover to keep out dust, etc.
Also check out Terracycle https://www.terracycle.com/en-US/
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This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by PhilGeis.
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This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by
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Me too. Too much “science” published in context of cosmetics is pure garbage. Consider the interpretation of ChatGPT that considers these vs the occasional good scientific report of folks who understand our technology.
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This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by PhilGeis.
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This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by
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I understand folks here are limited to the USP 51 based test that relies on microbes maintained in the lab each for many decades - one approaching 100 years. They are not representative of those that contaminate cosmetics. The test merely tells you the material has some antimicrobial efficacy, not that it has enough. Be assured that about every cosmetic product recalled passed the test, often with complete kill.
The significance of one additional in-use experience with a near term batch means nothing to the risk of lots of uses of just made and aged multiple product batches in the hands of all sorts of folks and their practices. You do not want to risk any of these folks within the boundaries of their intended and reasonably foreseeable misuse of any batch whenever they get it.
Few have the resources to develop/use a test validated to use or execute valid consumer testing. So please start with what should work, show the expected result in challenge.
Please understand safety - micro or chemical - is an affirmative process. Use a preservative systems that should and do work - not one that’s been dialed down to just pass or a couple of boosters.
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Maybe your seeing rancidification - that can be accelerated by some transition metals - esp. copper iron zinc tin reportedly via free radical formation. I know this is a problem the food and biodiesel folks experience. Maybe try some antioxidants but i know the chemistry isn’t that simple and some might make it worse. On the scalp makes it even ore complicated with the human and bug enzymes.
Curious - How did these folks get some much metal on their scalps?
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Apologies Richard - I have to comment as this practice, assuming consumer dilution, will most certainly have consumers using contaminated products. For most, this will at worst cause some mild folliculitis, but for immunocompromised folks (~30% of our population) the risk is serious as noted above.
No preservative will cover the risk of uncontrolled tap water. Recall our cosmetic preservatives are weak - they are not expected to achieve in a month the level of kill required of disinfectant in less than 10 minutes.
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So you don’t think I’m just blowing you off on this, here’s an example.
Challenge test revealed that benzoate consistently added a lot for preservation of surfactant products, esp. at pH (7.5) well above benzoic acid pKa. We’ve known this for many years before it was described and technically addressed in the literature.