[Pharma]

Laywoman, I have to remember that one .
NADES stands for natural deep eutectic solvents. It means that you take two or more solid compounds and when mixed at the right proportions, they become liquid. Honey and nectar are examples though most others contain choline as one of the parts whereas the other may be urea, sugars, amino acids, and many more. These ‘liquids’ are often very viscous (again, think honey), don’t evaporate (don’t dry out), are natural, show unique solvation properties, and they’re quite often even beneficial (e.g. vitamins or moisturisers). Oh, and they work without water but are miscible with it and new patents also in the cosmetics industry start popping up like mushrooms. For example for water-free deodorants. No water = a lot more stability and other benefits.
They are soo cool (and I’m such a nerd)!

[Pharma]

Not necessarily. Though by definition up to 20, the chitosan oligosaccharides I’ve came across have only between 2 and 10 monomers. This means that they don’t tend too strongly to coagulation and viscosity shouldn’t be increased too much either. It all depends on the relative amounts of chitosan (more precisely the amount of deacetylated monomers) versus phytate. If all goes well, I should receive some phytic acid somewhen around Easter, I’ll try it out (wanted to do that anyway) and keep you posted. Do you have a specific concentration for either of the two in mind?

Besides, pH 5.8 would be perfect for chitosan!
On the other hand, which clay do you use? I’m not really interested in the name or mineral per se, just the CEC (cation-exchange capacity) . Most clays have a negative surface charge and hence will behave much like phytic acid. Being rather huge particles, chitosan oligomers will simply stick to their surface, coating them in a molecular film of opposite charge (does zeta potential mean anything to you?). Depending again on proportions, this will affect rheology. Should you use high molecular weight  chitosan, then the effects will be even stronger… may be good, may be bad. Honestly, as exciting/funny/promising all this may sound, it all looks pretty much like a possible problem you could easily avoid by using the anionic modified chitin derivatives you first mentioned (should they be soluble at pH 5..
Just remembered: I have montmorillonite around and given the proper motivation…

[Pharma]

@Belassi
I got struck by uncertainty and did look it up: Really, there’s this 2014 study conducted on lab rats about glycyrrhizic acid for hair removal.
I only heard about anecdotal use of it for the opposite… thanks for letting me learn something new today!
Now that I know what GL acid stands for: It’s a pretty big molecule, a triterpene saponin, bearing three potential negative charges and two sugars. What does that mean? It is a natural ‘soap’, an anionic surfactant, but it needs either a high pH to form micelles or alcohol for a reasonably well solubility. Similar molecules are usually very poorly resorbed and can’t penetrate the skin either. But glycyrrhizic acid has an affinity for cholesterol-like molecules and dissolves in or mixes with sebum and I can imagine (more of an educated guess than a mere fantasy) that it therein diffuses for example to the hair follicles. Adding ethanol and urea will soften and ‘liquefy’ said cutaneous sebum allowing for a faster diffusion and deeper penetration along the hair shafts. Besides, urea in solution becomes a pretty good solvent itself, similar to DMSO. As I already mentioned before, urea especially together with ethanol should counteract the tendency of glycyrrizic acid to build micelles but form a true solution instead. Once the alcohol evaporates, solubility drops, and it’s forced into the skin’s lipid film. Were you to use plain water, then it should form micelles; upon evaporation, these are less likely to ‘bond’ with sebum and therefore might just sit on your skin, doing nothing except waiting until you take the next shower. And that’s why I guess the proposed concoction is not only super simple but also efficient and astonishingly nifty.

[Pharma]

Strictly speaking, a cosmetic product is not allowed to heal or to show any pharmacological effect (with the exceptions of moisturising and barrier function etc.). If it does so, then it becomes a pharmaceutical, or, where accepted, a cosmeceutical product.
It goes without saying that the right pharmaceuticals do act topically and it’s likely that some cosmetic (or food) ingredients will work systemically on injured skin because it lacks it’s natural barrier. Sure enough, there’s not only things we can’t explain (yet) but there’s also a grey zone.

[Pharma]

I’ve once tested one of those jellies from Lush. Like so many things from Lush, they are very funny but not so useful and tend to break apart after a few uses…
Principally, the 50% glycerol is enough as a preservative but will eventually leak out from the outer layer and hence doesn’t help too well for surfaces preservation. By coincidence, I’ve just answered nearly the same question in another thread. Anyway, the things possibly growing on your jelly are likely those a bit harder to kill and you are well advised to use an efficient preservative (a standard combination should hopefully do). Read through these pages and related ones, you’ll quickly find a wealth of informations regarding this subject.
Yes, you have to adjust the pH to a range in which the preservative you chose actually works. Adding citric acid by principle will be a good idea as it acts as an auxiliary preservative and pH buffer.
Alternatively, partially replacing glycerol with propylene glycol will increase the self-preservative efficacy but again, the surface will remain problematic.

Regarding the anionic surfactant: Using a sulfate derivative reduces possible problems with a slightly acidic pH but they are rather aggressive (but clean well). You could go with a non-ionic one which will less interact with carrageen (how this actually affects gel consistency is up to you to try). Why not just use a pre-formulated blend?
You should read some books or do one of those online curses here . There’s no simple answer to your question cause it’s like ‘I have a metal tube and a stick and want to build a rocket. Which propellant should I use?’.
Now, there’s one you might try if you’re in for an experiment: Aminosoap by Ajinomoto, it’s a blend of coconut fatty acids and arginine. It has a relatively high pH, you should not use it alone in your formulation, and would need a preservative active in slightly alkaline conditions. The ‘trick’ behind it is less that of being a surfactant than containing arginine which at a certain relative amount with regard to carrageen (try 5% w/w and go from there) will ‘electrostatically cross-link’ carrageen resulting in a tougher, less easily breaking gel. Using too much will result in complete coagulation/precipitation of carrageen and your gel separates into its constituents. Be aware that this effect might kick in days to months after the fabrication! Finding the optimal proportion is easier with a slime rather than a solid gel. Alternatively, try pure arginine, lysine, or ornithine which you can buy ounce-wise for a few $$ and in pure form for example in body-building online stores. Small amounts of cationic polymers or divalent cations (magnesium or calcium) might work too but I suppose you’d only see the incompatibility manifest. Had that once with a toothpaste which was fine for several weeks before it ‘disintegrated’.

Or play around with mixtures of different gelling agents. They have often better properties than the pure ones but there’s unfortunately no way around testing all the possibilities by yourself. Personally, I’d try a mix with gelatine first… if you use sugar instead of glycerin and raspberry flavour to replace the rest, then you get an edible Jelly-O and won’t have to throw it away if it isn’t perfect . Sure, sugar will behave a bit differently, but to get a feeling for the mixture, it’ll be close enough.

[Pharma]

Sounds more like fungi to me (likely Aspergillus sp.). Is it on top of the product or submerged?
Cause theoretically, glycerol (which isn’t a sugar but a polyol) above 20% is self-preservative but this does not count for surfaces where mould can thrive because it ‘floats’ on the product and doesn’t touch it enough to succumb to the osmotic pressure which is the main reason for the self-preservation. I’ve seen Aspergillus and co. growing on the weirdest places and preserving a surface isn’t as easy as the interior; why exactly it chose your product as growing medium I do not know. Adding a chelate (e.g. EDTA) can help reducing available microbial food (mostly iron) which is more abundant in technical grade products than in cosmetics or use a formaldehyde builder or a quat. I don’t like these two very much in cosmetics but they work usually better against surface contamination than the more ‘natural’ ones like parabens, benzoate, sorbate etc.

[Pharma]

Depending on the amount beta-sitesterol, campesterol, stigmasterol, and squalene leave a waxy residue on the skin and have an unpleasant feeling (like a mix of cold bees wax with chalk) which also depends on other lipids mixed with them. Though, at reasonably low concentrations and when mixed with oils they shouldn’t.
Lecithin is a very large term and can be a lot of things. I don’t like the liquid (soy) lecithin which contains roughly 50% soy oil (triglycerides) and can be very sticky but never waxy in my experience. That’s why I prefer granulated (deoiled) lecithin.
Apropos lecithin, it’s said that adding lysolecithin (which usually contains only a fraction of actual lysolecithin and still a lot of original lecithin and oil) to bees wax reduces the waxy feeling of the latter and makes it comfortably smooth and silky. Was it 1 part lysolecithin per 4 or 5 parts wax? I still have to try that myself…
As several others stated too, lanolin is quite sticky but I’ve never experienced it to be waxy unless you mistook wool wax alcohol for lanolin.

[Pharma]

Are you sure that GL acid stands for glycyrrhizic acid and not glycolic acid? The latter would make a lot more sense to me.
Besides, urea indirectly raises the measured pH of certain solutions. Chemically speaking, it’s neutral (depending on purity slightly acid as you’ve seen yourself) but causes weak acids to dissociate stronger (if it does so with weak bases I do not know). This means, the pH changes are rather unpredictable and depend on the mixture.
Besides, you’re in Mexico, right? Maybe you get luckier when asking for ‘carbamida’ .
It has several beneficial effects such as moisturising which is the reason why it’s commonly used in pharmaceutical preparations (and at higher concentrations often with salicylic, lactic, and/or glycolic acid together as exfoliant and keratolytic). It’s part of the natural moisturising factor and you could replace it with other hygroscopic compounds and compatible solutes such as glycerine or PCA. It’s also what makes your kidneys work the way they do and it’s very safe to use and very cheap (usually); you could, in moderate amounts, eat it without any issues. Besides that, it’s a chaotropic substance, it disturbs order (one reason for it’s penetration enhancing and keratolytic activities). Therefore, it breaks emulsions at high concentrations and isn’t the best friend of vesicles either. Depending on the exact reason why it’s in your preparation, you certainly should be able to replace it with something else but honestly, it’s a really cool stuff and as long as I don’t know what your GL acid really stands for…

[Pharma]

Unmodified chitin is a non-charged polymer and not water soluble but could be used as a suspension should you want a scrub or certain visual effects.
Chitosan is the simplest water-soluble derivative but requires to use a precise amount of an acid to bring it into a proper solution. Though, you can buy readily soluble salts such as chitosan HCl. It’s a high viscosity thickener and film-builder. Alternatively, chitosan oligosaccharide (usually as lactate salt) is low viscosity and a lot more expensive too but probably partially bioavailable and the most active form in in vitro tests.
These are cationic polymers (arguably the only natural cationic polymer) and behave differently than the more common anionic ones. They tolerate for example calcium but will drastically increase in viscosity (and finally floculate/precipitate) when mixed with polyacids (e.g. citrate, glutamate, phytate). The two modifications you listed are anionic and water soluble derivatives which are, regarding handling and preparation, similar to polyacrylates (carbopol) where you add a base to neutralise and dissolve them (unless, again, you directly purchase the salt form). I’m not familiar with these anionic derivatives but can tell you that chitosans aren’t just that: every product is different due their inhomogeneous composition and you have to look at the manufacturers specifications (like degree of polymerisation and degree of deacetylation). This is likely true for your examples.

[Pharma]

Hi D,

Isoceteth-20 and PPG-5-Ceteth-20 are the two surfactants in your mix which, as you
said before, help with solubilising fragrance constituents and perfume,
i.e. Citronellol, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Hydroxyisohexyl 3-Cyclohexene Carboxaldehyde, Linalool, Limonene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Fragrance (Parfum). They likely
serve as part of the hair product as well, for example as wetter to
prevent the spray from simply pearling off your hair. They likely affect hair texture and combability in a positive way but how exactly, I do not know as I never tried these two.

They are PEG derivatives like polysorbate 20 but are linear molecules and a lot better suited for
‘fragrances’. Cromollinet on the other hand is a similar ‘ceteth’ where I have no clue how well it’ll really work. Certainly someone else can answer that for you.

Are there ‘more natural’ alternatives? Yes! Cocoyl proline, tradname Natisol, is an amino acid derivative of coconut oil and is marketed for its great suitability for exactly that purpose. I haven’t tried it yet myself as I don’t know where to get small quantities but what I hear about it sounds great. Only drawback is, it’s an anionic surfactant which by nature is prone to not tolerate magnesium ions as well… Other ‘natural’ non-ionic surfactants would be sugar derivatives where I have no personal experience on how well they will work with essential oils; though, I’ve been told that alkyl polyglucose derivatives do a good job in this regard.

Neither surfactants nor seaweed extracts do anything positive regarding magnesium sulfate (if ever, it’ll be quite the opposite). Epsom salt is not suspended in water but due its high solubility a true solution and doesn’t need anything for that except water.

Citric Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Potassium Sorbate:
Preservatives as already mentioned. Citric acid is very helpful in this
preparation as it functions as ‘sequestrant’ (chelate) for all the trace
elements contained in the seaweed extracts which support chemical an microbial degradation. If it really buffers or just lowers pH depends on what else is in the spray, for example what kind of seaweed extract. Anyway, I wouldn’t remove it from your personal modification.

Water, Magnesium Sulfate, Macrocystis Pyrifera (Kelp) Extract and Ascophyllum
Nodosum Extract are what remains. As said, you can and should try a simple solution of epsom salt in water and see how and how much it differs from the original and go from there. The seaweed extracts can be anything, there’s a bunch of very different products (for example carrageen is extracted from seaweed) out there and you’ll never know what exactly is in the B&B formula. I don’t think that they affect the overall properties of the formula much and they most certainly don’t contribute to solubility, emulsion, or the like.

Do not use plain seawater! For one, it contains, if memory serves me right, between 2 and 6% salt, though most often around 3.5% and hence you don’t know how much salt you actually have and may not be able to repeat the exact same formulation. On the other hand, there’s a whole bunch of organic matter and living organisms in there too. Better buy sea salt. You could make your own by slowly evaporating seawater but buying sea salt or other forms of unrefined salts is way more practical and limits contaminations. Although sea salt can have soothing effects on the skin, be aware that too much of it will not be very nice for your hair and can make it strawy (not sure if I used this term correctly) . At a rough estimate I’d say you’ll have to cut down 1 weight part of Epsom salt for every 2-4 weight parts of sea salt you add in order to avoid ‘oversalting’ your product. Did I already mention that cocoyl proline is an anionic surfactant and will not as readily tolerate higher amounts of salts?

PS Sorry, there’s something weird happening with the formate…

[Pharma]

Good day/night everyone,

I’m very glad I’ve found this place with people from around the world sharing the same interest (at least one of them). More so, a place where professionals and novices can interact in a very constructive manner.

My name is Andreas and you may communicate in German, English, or French with me. Originally from Switzerland, my current home is France but tomorrow might be an entirely different place… though happily married, we haven’t really settled down yet.

I’m a pharmacist by training and worked part time in a pharmacy to finance my PhD in pharmacognosy and phytochemistry about anti-inflammatory activities of ginger. I added a PostDoc in the same fields but on chemopreventive activities of plants and am now searching for a job other than academic research. I’d like to do things with plants, create something new, something which people can actually hold in their hands (or put on their heads ), and the cosmetics industry seems to be the right place for that.
Besides, I love making all kinds of herbal, pharmaceutical, cosmeceutical, and ‘functionalised’ cosmetic preparations not only for people but also for pets and even plants but I do so only as an on-and-off hobby. I know I should do something more with it but I guess I lack the needed marketing skills… or the guts to become independent.

I appreciated studying pharmacy very much because it came with a very broad set of scientific fields where I focused (and still do) mainly on medicinal plants and galenics, but also life sciences, organic chemistry, biology (human and plant physiology, veterinary medicine), and at home ‘kitchen chemistry’ and all sorts of formulations. My latest addition to things I’m interested in are NADES. Besides that, we have four little dogs to cuddle and a garden where only girasole, mildew, and snails thrive…
As a pharmacist it seems I’m getting pre-categorised by the industries, too bad for me it’s not in the areas of my interests. True, I am a bit a Jack of all trades although with profoundness (haha, tell that Santa Claus) and I try to learn something new every day which might explain why I had so far no luck getting a job where I really wanted. BTW what the heck is pharmacognosy anyway and you really have a Dr. title on a spice?

Friends and family tell me I should use all this knowledge to create something on my own, that there are a lot of people knowing less but selling ‘something’. Or I should do consulting as I like helping people finding personalised solutions; I’m actually pretty good at explaining difficult stuff in a practical way but I guess I’m terrible with marketing myself. Anyway, now I try here and there to find folks interested in scientific background for the things they do, trade creative ideas, solve problems others couldn’t (love that!), translate scientific literature in an actually understandable language, and do stuff they simply have no time or interest for. For example in the field of natural and herbal cosmetics here on CC…