Pharma
Forum Replies Created
-
Every EO has, in theory, it’s own HLB but since EOs are natural products and may come from different chemovars, their composition may be very different between batches. In addition to that, knowing their HLB would only help if you included the EO in the oil phase. Since EOs are volatile, one usually adds them last (unless you’re cold processing) and that’s where & why solubilisers come into play.
-
At least in theory, tetrahexyldecyl
ascorbate is nearly as stable as any ester oil. I’d also start looking elsewhere too.BTW do you still have some spoiled product left? Heat it and let the phases separate; it can but not necessarily has to tell you more (unfortunately, decomposed THC ascorbate would likely colour water and not oil phase). -
Gluconolactone is a chelate and not a fungicide
. Chelates in general boost antimicrobial efficacy but they don’t turn a poor preservative into a great one (not saying that optiphen is weak). -
abh032000 said:high intensity oil solubles natural sweetners?
Ehh?? A what?
-
@MarkBroussard: He is talking about free fatty acids, not total content .Click HERE: A literature review (one of the few I could find) wherein they conclude that high oleic acid oils (triglyceride bound fatty acids) tend to cause skin irritation more than other oils do. Why, I don’t know. It might have something to do with arachidonic acid metabolism (=inflammatory immune responses). BTW these days, sunflower oil comes from high or low oleic acid chemovars (fortunately, the label usually tells if it’s derived from a high oleic acid cultivar).@Rimshah: All free fatty acids have the tendency to irritate skin. As mentioned above, it’s AFAIK about total oleic acid content, not just free oleic acid.
-
BTW if you’re intending on selling in the EU: Be careful because the amount of cetrimonium bromide in products (rinse-off hair products, leave-on hair products, and leave-on face products) is regulated (google “Regulation (EU) No. 866/2014”).
-
@Perry An oil free oil ROFL! Sometimes I love marketing, but just sometimes.
-
0.1% is the concentration used as preservation.Me personally, I wouldn’t use it as emulsifier, it’s smelly (stinks like rotten fish, if you ask me) and tends to cause skin irritation.
-
Lindsey1009 said:… feel more smooth and silky? …
Trade in some of the beeswax with cetyl palmitate (silky and smoother than pure wax) or myristyl myristate (softer and shinier). Like 1-2% plus 0.5% wax instead of 2% wax. 2% beeswax are probably giving a “gritty/rough” and waxy feel and a somewhat “chippy/scaly” look (dunno how to describe it). Or change to a smoother, lower melting wax such as candelilla or any of the berry waxes.
-
It could also mean that it doesn’t leave a greasy skin or an oily feeling??Is there even a proper definition of “oil”? You pointed out butters: these are chemically speaking triglycerides like the “oils” by your definition. But cosmetics and INCI aren’t chemical nomenclature. A different definition of oil is their appearance/haptics/physico-chemical properties = being water insoluble sticky/greasy liquids such as paraffin oil, silicone oils, essential oils, and 3 out of the 4 sunscreens in the above LOI.
-
ngarayeva001 said:…
I would really appreciate if someone can share.Me too.Although w/o HLB requirements are usually useless because (as mentioned above) most w/o emulsions aren’t inverse micelles but a mixture of other w/o systems which don’t “comply with the HLB system”.If you look closely, the values I found are from “old/traditional” ingredients back from the day when “things were different” (when we thought that stable o/w and w/o emulsions are always micellar systems). -
Define “act like proteins”. There is nothing in there which has anything to do with proteins (except for traces of them in the amla fruit powder).- BEHENTRIMONIUM CHLORIDE and BEHENTRIMONIUM METHOSULFATE are basically the same with only minor differences, with the aim of a lean formulation, you could use just one of these.- C10-40 ISOALKYLAMIDOPROPYLETHYLDIMONIUM ETHOSULFATE is also a quat. You could probably use just this one or only behentrimonium. But that’s from a very reductionistic point of view.- A bunch of (organic) oils and butters. You could slim these down to just 1 or 2 or even zip and use a tick more caprylic/capric triglyceride instead (and adjust viscosity if needed by altering the amount of dipropylene glycol. Depending on your formulation, remove dipropylene glycol.- Probably remove panthenol.- Remove amla fruit powder.- Tell the developers of that formula that they messed up. Given the fair amount of unsaturated fatty acids (especially sacha inchi) you’d be better off adding tocopherol instead of tocopheryl acetate. Tocopheryl acetate is useless, tocopherol on the other hand is very helpful in that particular formulation.- Is glycereth-2 cocoate part of a blend used in that formulation and can be omitted? Else it might be required as co-emulsifier for increased stability/consistency.- The rest is standard conditioner ingredients and should stay: water, fatty alcohol, emulsifier, fragrance, preservatives (can probably be slimmed down), sequestrant, pH adjuster.
-
ngarayeva001 said:I think you should post your formula and have it reviewed.
Look at this, that’s my idea too! 😉
-
Short version:Yes, you miss something. HLB values are, except for PEG-acyl ethers, either empirical or use modern fancy mathematical models. HLB is basically caused by shape and lipophilic-hydrophilic volume ratio and not just a molecular weight ratio and it translates to interfacial curvature or an angle (180° being straight e.g. intermediate HLB = not micelles/inverse micelles but lamellar structure).HLB requirement of oils is usually the HLB required to form a stable o/w emulsion. You rarely find HLB requirements for w/o emulsions (these are lower: beeswax o/w = 12, w/o = 4, lanolin is 10 and 8, octyldodecanol has 11 and 6, liquid paraffin has 10 and 4, respectively, and that’s about all I could find).Midrange HLB or no interface curvature makes the system highly dependent on composition of the two phases and co-emulsifiers and fatty alcohols to tip curvature to one or the other side. Mixing different emulsifiers and fatty alcohols leads to self-assembling, like black and white tiles forming a chess board only that the tiles can have many shapes, triangular, pentagonal, hexagonal and mixtures thereof like you see on a football. Given that such an emulsion is usually a mix of different types like lamellar, hexagonal, cubic, and micellar phases makes it easy for such a system to distribute excesses of on or the other emulsifier to another part of the emulsion or, like with monoglycerides and fatty alcohols, simply have them dissolve in the oil. A pure PEG emulsifier on the other has no choice other than sticking to the interphase and hence, the emulsion works or breaks.I let you meditate on that and am going sleepy-sleepy. Nighty-night!
-
GabyD said:…I contacted the manufacturers who suggested I add the MSB at the aqueous stage……If you have any constructive advice……Benzyl Alcohol… …Naticide 0.6%…First of all, I wasn’t going to insult you (well, probably I did but it wasn’t my intention). See, I’m supposed to be very intelligent and what I do is giving free hugs waiting for good karma to kick in whilst you may not know as much but make good money from it. Who’s now the smarter one of us? My question was probably more a rhetorical one to the universe…Now back to topic: Do I understand you right that you first added MSB to the oil phase and did a PCT, everything was fine and you scaled up but now people got skin burn. At that point you changed to adding it to the aqueous phase and raised pH, trading in skin burn for mould?Your solution is now benzyl alcohol and Naticide? BA requires a low pH and is only useful against bacteria. Naticide requires also a low pH and seems (from hearsay on the internet, not personal experience or anything) to be poor against mould but great in irritating skin.It looks like, obviously, that your main issue is mould. Hence, you need something strong against mould. I have the impression you’re going full natural. Therefore, the best I could find against mould (again, not based on personal experience) are p-anisic acid (low pH required) and Cosphaderm Magnolia Extract 98.
-
How comes, no offence but a serious question @GabyD, that someone who develops and produces cosmetics for third parties doesn’t know the basics.At least to me this issue seems to have a higher priority than itchy skin.
-
Yes. Well, as pharmacist we kinda learned that if you knew your job, then you knew how to make an emulsion stable. Thickening water phase wasn’t exactly called that but treated as such; a way of “cheating” for those who didn’t manage a make their emulsion stable because they didn’t know how to calculate HLB and the like.Now when I started making cosmetics, things all of a sudden look different. You don’t inject emulsions into patients anymore, creams are no longer applied for transdermal drug delivery, and you don’t put a note on it “Keep in fridge. Exp.: 1 Months from now”. Customers buy cosmetics because of hopes and dreams, use them for fun, want them to be fine under the most extreme/stupid conditions, and worst of all, they want an awesome looking/feeling/smelling/forever-rejuvenating magical potion. You have to lie and cheat the shit (*ups*) out of it just to get a step closer to that expectation. And that was the point where I learned that it’s absolutely okay to thicken water phase. Nonetheless, I still don’t really like water gelling, gelling oil on the other hand is absolutely fine, though. Likely because back in the day we thought of it differently (that’s why I prefer the expression “state of error” rather than “state of knowledge”).
-
If you have some Microcare SB left, you could have it analysed. Do you have the analysis certificates of the old and new batches?If you’re unlucky, your fist batch simply hadn’t contact with the resistant mould now thriving in your product.Your product is prone to spoilage, only using benzoate/sorbate is a tightrope walk.BTW what is olyvoyl emulsifier? Your LOI would be more useful (to me) if it were proper INCI names.And suing people because it was probably you who messed up… did you actually negotiate/talk to the manufacturer? See, using a pH 5.8 for your preservative blend is playing with fire. Benzoic and sorbic acid are also known irritants. Furthermore, sorbic acid is heat sensitive and scaling up usually increases cool down time and hence there’s a higher possibility for sorbic acid to degrade in bigger batches.
-
ngarayeva001 said:…I really wonder why is it added to W/Si system…If that’s the only thing you wonder why it’s in there… 🙂Check THIS out: They say it’s compatible with silicones.
-
What’s in it that causes the stench? You’re hopefully not using rancid oils?Certain smells can be neutralised by adjusting pH, others may be masked using cyclodextrins, silica or certain clays.Apart from that, lemony flavours are often used to mask smell but I can imagine that they won’t help as good against the off-taste.
-
Aloe vera, does that ever get thick before you go broke?Snotty? How so and why should the “improved” version be any better? Xanthan has strong synergies with locust bean gum and similar gums. Depending on the combination, you can tweak rheology to your likings.Alginate smells of seaweed? Not mine… it’s food grade and I didn’t notice any smell/taste at all.BTW HEC isn’t necessarily 0% petroleum. Depending on synthesis/manufacturer, the ethyl groups come from petroleum chemistry and not from bio-ethanol.
-
La Prairie, I thought it must be something fancy and expensive :smiley: .Seppic says Simulgel NS is a gelling agent for all sorts of oil phase and silicones are also considered oils.I suppose La Prairie uses different pre-blends for their creams to facilitate production. I mean, who’s gonna weigh 100 ingredients one by one? Could well be that Simulgel NS is part of such a mix (??).BTW disteardimonium hectorite and aluminum starch octenylsuccinate are oil gelling agents too. Hydrogenated lecithin and phospholipids can also be used to gel oil and may show synergism with unsaponifiables. Or they’re just in there because of aforementioned blends.OT:- Why isn’t ilomastat considered a drug?- Probably a layman’s question: What does Plexiglas do in that foundation? Microplastic particles? What for?
-
Thanks @gld010 for the input but surfactin is peptide based and not a polyglycerol or sugar derivative, it’s also VERY different from other surfactants/emulsifiers and therefore not helpful, sorry.
-
It’s a personal infamous.See, everything I could find out fitting my criteria was with sucrose laurate and that one I don’t have and won’t for a while. Also, the best info I found was on the website of Alchemy Ingredients where they claim (dunno if it’s to boost sales of their own pre-mix or the naked truth) that it’s a PITA to work with and requires special equipment such as vacuum which I don’t have either and won’t for a while.I kinda expected that whatever answer I’ll get will mention sucrose laurate… et voilà, here I have it! That’s why I call it infamous (“cursed” was what I initially wanted to write but that sounded a bit over the top).
-
If you pasteurise it, a herbal infusion, like most beverages, will be okay for 2-3 days in the fridge.Else, use single use doses (sterile/UHP), add >40% sugar, or add glycerol or similar polyols or ethanol at sufficiently high levels.