Pharma
Forum Replies Created
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A: Dissolving magnesium chloride in water is an exothermic reaction. Some salts show this, others are endothermic, and the rest doesn’t noticeably change temperature upon dissolution
. This has nothing to do with chemical reactions, it’s just disintegration of MgCl2 crystal structure and subsequent hydration of Mg and Cl ions.B: Pure MgCl2 has a slight acidic pH in water although, according to the simple view of chemistry, it shouldn’t even affect pH at all. Depending on water quality (self-buffering, presence of carbonate/carbonic acid) etc., pH can range from 5.5 to 7. If it’s lower, it has to be due to contaminants and since most of the common contaminants of magnesium chloride do not affect pH…C: Sure it does. You advise against something because of possible (according to you quantitative, according to me trace) chemical reactions whilst, I guess, most don’t even think about incompatibilities and chemical reactions when combining zinc oxide with very common stuff such as stearic acid which really does react to form oil soluble zinc stearate.
I’m still awaiting scientific proof for your claim of dissolved ZnO.E: Don’t get me wrong: I’m not trying to win a pissing contests here, I’m really asking you because of interest and I won’t mime bad loser afterwards (since it’s not about winning/losing) . -
Well, standard colloidal silver water is unfortunately (or should I say fortunately?) always “contaminated” with silver ions. “Fortunately” because the antimicrobial activity is due to silver ions rather than silver metal particles.If you want only the ions without metallic silver present, use a soluble silver salt such as silver nitrate. Mind, it’s highly susceptible to light and also oxygen and will turn into dark useless silver oxide.What do you expect from your formula (apart from being the best possible shaving soap ever 🙂 )? Silver quite often doesn’t do sh** and certainly not the magic the whole hype is all about. It will also react with different ingredients and hence put you on a short leash regarding formula flexibility.
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MarkBroussard said:It’s a simple exothermic dissociation “reaction”:
MgCl2 + H20 = Mg(OH)2 + 2HCl
…Exothermic and it builds hydrochloric acid? Mark, seriously? That’s plain ridiculous! Magnesium chloride builds as much HCl as sodium chloride does, which is zip-zero-nada. What it does is form magnesium hexahydrate in water and this behaves slightly acidic but just slightly.BTW stearic acid does react with zinc oxide. Did you ever consider that? -
The electrochemical potential doesn’t apply here since the metal ions don’t change their 2+ positive charge, whether they are in the form of a soluble chloride salt or an insoluble oxide. According to the electrochemical series, mixing calcium hydroxide or oxide with magnesium chloride wouldn’t result in calcium chloride and magnesium hydroxide. On the other hand, it is in accordance with what you @Belassi and I suspect: nothing happens when mixing magnesium chloride with zinc oxide. There are even publications producing nano-ZnO by mixing ZnCl2 with MgO.It’s not about electrochemical potential but mostly about solubility of the oxides and hydroxides and where the equilibria between oxide <-> hydroxides (in the case of zinc, also which kinds hydroxides) <-> free 2+ ions lie.BTW it’s called Zechstein and that is a marketing gag! Most MgCl2 from Europe which has not resulted from synthesis by-products or sea water is mined from a sediment layer called zechstein. It’s comparable with rock salt! And stupid consumers believe that sea salt is good and rock salt is bad but rock MgCl2 is good and sea MgCl2 (most US MgCl2 comes from lake water) is bad. In the end, it’s highly refined and purified MgCl2 either way. Nothing magic about “Zechstein magnesium” and it doesn’t contain more or less whatever there could be. Its pH is simply a matter of contaminants and how it has been purified. Which contaminants cause acidity, I do not know, it could be something like MgCl2-HCl since chloride tends to form complexes with metals but that’s speculation. In the end, it’s just about pH and how much acid is in there. Small traces of a strong acid can drop pH considerably but will be neutralised in no time.
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Why didn’t you tell us right away that you’re going to make soap?You ARE going to make soap, right?BTW there’s a 35 B° in that table whereas your first post says 45 B°.You could simply re-calculate the amount needed for the degree of saponification you’re looking for by estimating based on saponification numbers. Since 45 and 50 won’t be that different (you’re going to experience a difference anyway since then and now changed more than a few things), you could simply use a ratio of 55:4?Or you figure out how to use google and then get the following answers:HERE‘s a table for NaOH aka soda lye = 42.07% solution at 20°C.HERE‘s the one for KOH aka potash lye = ~51.6% solution at 20°C.Need more help calculating or does that suffice?
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These silocone based products are also great for removing fir resin, chewing gum, tar and the like. Nope, not from my scalp hair but from our doggies paws
. Generally, it works better and milder than acetone! -
Ceramides, at least real ceramides, are always expensive. You might find synthetic derivatives or “look-alikes” for a lower price.
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Okay, now I get it! I was already wondering what your title meant… looks French, sounds French but doesn’t mean anything in French (unless it’s patois).So, according to Wiki, you calculate specific gravity of the required solutions as follows: 145/(145-50)=~1.526 for potash and 145/(145-45)=1.45 for soda.And that’s about what you can calculate. Now you need a conversion table to get the concentrations or you do a concentration curve and determine it yourself.
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MarkBroussard said:…With dissociated Cl ions in solution, all you need is a proton donor and it’ll form HCl and the ZnO will react with the acid to decompose to Zinc Cloride.Sounds a bit too generalised to me. Else, you would have problems as soon as, well, you take cosmetic grade ingredients since salt (sodium CHLORIDE) is a very common contaminant. Also, many formulas contain salt… doesn’t mean that you have instantaneous and complete decomposition of zinc oxide (or iron springs in dispensers). Sure, a strong enough acid will result in a corrosive mixture (which is chloride ions and protons but not HCl). The problem lies in increased solubility of many metal ions in the form of chloride salts which commonly results in rusting or dissolution of a metal otherwise resistant to certain acids such as aluminium to vinegar, where dissolution in conjunction with salt occurs only because of the protective aluminium oxide (yes, I know, metal oxide) becoming soluble in acidic brine.Do you have any literature regarding magnesium chloride (or calcium chloride) reacting with zinc oxide? I’d be grateful to learn something new!
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What exactly do you want to calculate?To me it looks like no calculation is needed. Take 550 kg of potash lye (whatever 50 stands for) and mix with 40 kg of soda lye (again, no clue what 45 means). Dunno if it’s important to hold it at B degrees :blush: .
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Did you try sciencedirect.com and pubmed.com instead of google?
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Vaccum it afterwards… works with creams might work with toothpaste (given enough time). Probably something like THAT???
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@Belassi Sure it would be too thick! That’s why I’d drop nearly all the oils (use them for your 5 minute spa mask) and just apply the actives in plain water. If you know what I mean…The mentioned “sterol gelling” can take quite some time!@EliseCortes No, it’s not that. Because a) sterols need a second ingredient such as glyceryl stearate (although, with enough you can still produce high viscous oil phases simply by increasing melting temp of the blend ) and b) betulin is not an emulsifier, therefore no cream/emulsion. Although, they do manage to make a cream… dunno what’s going on in that product! Maybe just the high melting point of the oil phase resulting in a semi-stable lamellar-like product (this kind of cream is traditionally obtained by using beeswax and is called a traditional cold cream).Gotta run, sorry!
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Grittiness is best avoided by using enough water, an emulsifier won’t help with salt crystals. Magnesium chloride is twice as water soluble as the sulfate .Magnesium oxide will react faster and fully with acids whereas zinc oxide tends to be slow and superficial (different solubility, different crystal structure etc., though a paper sketch formula won’t show any differences). If you want something even less reactive, titanium oxide might be a workaround (though it’s no longer considered as inert as we used to think, same story as with zinc oxide a while back…). Or switch ascorbyl palmitate with ethyl ascorbic acid (not acidic anymore) and use a batch of magnesium chloride which has a neutral pH. In theory, MgCl2 in solution is neutral! Acidic solutions are due to traces of other salts, probably hydrochloric acid (?), or other impurities present at possibly up to 5% but not caused by MgCl2 itself. Neutralising these with whatever pleases you should solve the issue. Besides, theory says that MgCl2 + ZnO won’t react to MgO + ZnCl2 but would react the other way round. The issue of zinc oxide instability might be hiding in the unknown…
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Your proteins also contribute to emulsion (in-)stability which highly depends on pH (unique for each protein, dunno the best pH for silk and and wheat) and, if it’s partially or fully hydrolysed proteins, they often contain considerable amounts of salts.Sodium sunflowerseedate is also pH dependent, it’s basically sunflower oil soap which looses it’s emulsifying ability at acidic pH (1% citric and 2% sorbic acid are certainly lowering pH considerably) . And 2% sorbic acid will not do any good to your skin (not to mentioner the too high amount in DHA)!Something else to consider: Xyliance is about 50% cetearyl alcohol. This plus 3% additional cetearyl alcohol, 3% sunflower fatty acids (formed at low pH), and 10% shea butter will likely turn your oil phase solid or at least butter like. That masks emulsion instability for a short time since oil droplets don’t fuse but only show creaming and/or aggregate formation. The latter may partially be inhibited by the added proteins. Hence the separation with some hours delay.I think you’d be better off with a different emulsifier (Xyliance, according to some sources, works better with a higher oil phase than yours, cetearyl alcohol is not needed, and mixing the two phases can be tricky).
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Okay, thanks!Glycyrrhizic acid is THE saponin in licorice . Read in THIS thread the answer by @Doreen on August 14. Seems like it is susceptible to gelling in conjunction with certain salts/acids.So why the rinse-off? Personally, I’d at least use glycerin, MSM, DMAE, licorice extract, mimosa extract, and probably aloe separately as a leave-in, for example as an aqueous spray. I use glycerin, MSM, DMAE-related compounds (trimethylglycine and choline), and a tick quillaja saponin in a moisturising hair spray. Well, different “indication” and even more ingredients but feels nice and soothing and nourishes my hair, it’s not greasy, tacky, or anything and, who would have thought, it utterly fails regarding its main purpose, hair growth LoL.Just a wild guess: glyceryl stearate and phytosterol-derivatives (glycyrrhizic acid is closely related to those) show, at a certain proportion, synergistic oil gelling. This gelling is influenced by cooling speed and some of the sterols are susceptible to water. This might contribute to the irregular clumping… again, just guessing/extrapolating. IMHO splitting your product into two separate ones would not only solve the issue but increase benefits.
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For what does GL acid stand for? Glycyrrhizic or glycyrrhetic acid? It could be the reason for clumping.What is Tepex? Can’t be THIS product unless you’re mentioning packaging materials in the LOI because it’s sooo super fancy! :smiley:Out of curiosity: do you use pure liquid DMAE or crystalline DMAE bitartrate? How does it affect/modify sensorial properties? So far, I only use it as nutrient supplement in my shakes.Why did you make it a “mask” like product and not a leave-in (simply by cutting down oils and emulsifiers)? 5 minutes is a short time for those ingredients, don’t you think?
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Zinc oxide may form organic zinc salts at low pH (likely, only a small fraction will react) but since a low % of for example zinc sulfate is allowed in cosmetics, it shouldn’t be too much of an issue… but then again, who knows without knowing?If you have enough wax in your oil phase, what you get is similar to a traditional cold cream, a pseudo-emulsion without emulsifier which becomes fairly stable due to the oil phase being solid enough to prevent water droplet movement/fusion/sedimentation.Personally (and I really mean that in a subjective way), I’d add glyceryl caprylate, pentylene glycol and Cosphaderm magnolia extract 98 (does also exist as pre-mix Cosphaderm MultiMEG). You don’t need much because you have a very small water phase. The proposed % to be used doesn’t always have to be with regard to the total but just to the amount water phase especially with highly water soluble preservatives and if you’re only using it because, as we say, double-stitched holds better. Well, magnolia extract (composed of mostly magnolol and honokiol) is oil soluble and therefore, this rule of thumbs doesn’t apply. The upside is, that magnolol and honokiol are anti-inflammatory and you might want to add more anyway :smiley: . Glyceryl caprylate isn’t fully water soluble (though it probably is in a water/MSM mixture) but because it should also serve as emulsifier, not using less seems also beneficial.Magnesium does go into upper skin layers but it doesn’t penetrate through them. Small quantities can be found in the bloodstream but magnesium being more of a quantitative than a trace element, such small quantities don’t do anything. I read quite a bit about topical magnesium: It’s a dream unless you’re using it for topical effects.Besides, MgCl2 does perform better than the sulfate and it can show synergism with glycerol, urea or pentylene glycol .Regarding anti-inflammatory activities: Facts point toward MSM not just being the main metabolite of DMSO but also for being the active form of DMSO. To be on the safe side, go with MSM since it’s safe and does penetrate skin well.I don’t know that publication about flu viruses and would have to read it to be able to explain anything. One factor might be that MSM has properties of osmolytes and these can have effects on virus viability or shedding. But osmolytes have many more effects, for the most part very beneficial for skin .
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ngarayeva001 said:…O/W with Polyglyceryl-4 Isostearate.
Actually, EcoDropGel is intended to form w/o emulsions
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From what I understand, it’s basically a high water content cold cream which breaks upon application. Nothing fancy there except for a lighter texture (more water and hydrophobic clay instead of wax) than traditional cold creams…BTW a water phase of >80% makes it a HIPE gel.
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Zaf said:…Water:
2 Tbsp - Purified Water
1 Tbsp - Magnesium Chloride
1 Tbsp - OptiMSM…First: Please don’t use “spoons” as a measure! For example, rough salts have a different weight than finely ground salts. Hence, if you’re posting here, re-calculate in grams and you’ll get better answers!Second: Approximately 1 part water to 1 part MgCl2 & MSM drops water activity to a level where nothing will grow; adding more water to be able to add more MSM doesn’t make a difference because the oil phase doesn’t count. Using MgCl2 (but not MgSO4) will also drop relative humidity in the headspace to ~35% and that is enough to stop fungal growth there. A 30% solution of magnesium chloride is self-preserving and doesn’t require additional preservatives. But this is true for pure MgCl2 solutions and not necessarily mixtures such as yours.Sulfur from MSM and sulfate doesn’t impart any preservative action. Salts and MSM simply drop the free water proportion by being solutes and that’s it. One hurdle and one hurdle only (a good one, I have to admit that).Your formula might still not be stable since you have no emulsifier in it and this might result in small droplets of purer water forming somewhere and then, you’d risk having microbial growth there. At least consider adding something that weakens or even kills microbes and don’t just rely solely on water activity which simply stops them from proliferating but not from existing.I don’t know what you mean with “MSM is used in cultures” and what’s that thing with “growing viruses/flu” (flu doesn’t grow in a cosmetic product)?pH in your water phase is something you can neglect here since it only reflects the pH of plant extracts and probably ascorbyl palmitate. It’s a small proportion and skin pH will automatically adjust shortly after applying your cream. Having it acidic will be good for preservation but you can’t really determine pH in your mix. Even just measuring pH of your water phase (plus the plant extracts) will be off (too concentrated solution) -> you will have to dilute with pure water to get a better idea of the “true” pH. -
I kinda zapped that you don’t have a standard emulsion but a shampoo… that might change everything. Did you try thickening with salt? Might work.
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Gura hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride is in theory incompatible with glyceryl stearate citrate. The latter though is composed of mostly glyceryl stearate plus some % (theoretically anionic) glyceryl stearate citrate. Depending on the degree of modification of guar gum and the % of real GSC, adding some guar can increase stability and viscosity or it might kill either of which completely. To determine this, you could either use a zetasizer or do a trial and error panel using different proportions.Alternatively, replace GSC with a nonionic, amphoteric, or even better a cationic surfactant if you think that you really need GSC. After all, you already have a bunch of emulsifiers/surfactants in there. For increased oil phase viscosity, try pure glyceryl stearate. I wouldn’t know why GSC should add any benefit to your formula stability-wise.Out of curiosity, what is in your formula that makes it so acidic that you have to add 0.7% KOH and what final pH do you get? Being in an acidic pH renders GSC fairly nonionic-like and your guar should (again in theory) increase stability whereas a high pH renders it very anionic and small amounts of quaternised guar should still be okay. On the other hand, it is possible that said combination leads to an increase in stability but produces smaller oil droplets and that’s where loss of viscosity comes from. Without a zetasizer you won’t be able to really tell what’s going on. Although, a good microscope might give strong indications too .
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It doesn’t necessarily have to be below 4 but it might help. Also, you have a stabiliser (acetanilide) and you have a chelator (citric acid). I certainly wouldn’t use a stannate in a skincare product though exchanging citric for etidronic acid might be an option. Some patents propose the use of phytic acid though I couldn’t find any useful scientific literature in this regard. TBH, I don’t know if acetanilide is fine in a skincare product either… there are products such as Refectocil which only use citric acid at a slightly acidic pH and that cream is stable for several months.
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What is the INCI name of your emulsifying wax? There are several different ones . If it’s the one containing boric acid, then this might be the source of hydrogen peroxide decomposition. Regarding stability; how do you know that it’s not stable? Does your container bloat?Turmeric oil (mostly curcumin, I suppose) may not be stable and could be another reason why. Don’t mix any plant extracts with your cream.The rest should be fine, since all you have left in there is A) stable against H2O2 or
is a stabiliser for H2O2.I don’t know if 0.05% citric acid suffices. Did you check pH?