[Pharma]

DIY_Newbie said:

… I would use a paraben as a preservative (Paraben DU or Germaben II) but the surfactants I’m using are non ionic and will inactive parabens from my understanding.  Is there any other options for me? Can I still use a paraben preservative system?  Would this be preserved enough for 3ish months of use by itself(just Potassium Sorbate)?…

As @ngarayeva001 said, 15% 1,3-propanediol is already self-preserving plus a very low pH, gluconolactone, gluconate, and citric acid (why use all three? Gluconolactone builds gluconate and that one does about the same than citric acid ), the rest is antioxidants. That cocktail is pure preservation :smiley: !

Honestly, I don’t think that you’d even have to add sorbate or the like. If you want something to be on the super-safe side, go with a slightly volatile preservative to protect also head space. 2-Phenylethanol aka phenethyl alcohol but also anisic acid (not sure if pH well below 4 is okay for anisic acid) would come to mind. Sorbate is a good choice for low pH and low water activity products such as your serum since the main problematic microbes are yeasts and moulds but not bacteria.

Regarding non-ionics inhibiting parabens: This is based on findings with PEGs. I haven’t heard of parabens being inactivated by polyols (e.g. Suga Muls).

I would bet that your product spoils first on a chemical level (ascorbic acid degradation/oxidation) than a microbial one. 3 month for an aqueous DIY solution such as yours should be more than fine!

[Pharma]

@Microformulation Silicon oils contain carbon atoms, hence they are organic (therefore, nearly all emulsifiers are also organic) .

@Stanley: Depending on your definition of organic, you may choose between nearly all emulsifiers (organic in a chemical sense) or nearly non (organic as in organic farming). In the latter case, it depends on the certifying organism/label whether or not they have product X or Y on their list. Some do not allow any pure emulsifiers, others only lecithins, soaps (saponified oils/fats/waxes), and saponins (probably forgot 1 or 2 others…. anyway, all these are not useful for your application). You need something as synthetic as your silicone phase .

[Pharma]

Nope, never been on Etsy… is it worth it?

Last week I sold sodium hydroxide to someone who makes goat milk soap. She add mixes milk with soda lye and once it’s hot, adds the oils and lets saponify. I was terrified bout the waste and inquired if she’s not concerned that the good stuff also hydrolyses. She was just like “People love my soap.”

@Emi: The reason why preservatives are used in cosmetics (and similar products) is because of the water because only water needs preservation. Hence, the choice for you is the same as for everybody else. Milk may require a bit more because it’s great microbe food.

[Pharma]

Milk like diary products? Wrong forum .

[Pharma]

What stands SSR in sulfonic acid for? If it’s just sulfonic acid, then there would be no point in neutralising it.

Urea will do nothing apart from degrading (especially at a pH as high as .

NP9 is prohibited in EU and highly disadviced by the US EPA.

What is CDE?

[Pharma]

How? That’s going to be a lengthy lecture I’m not having the time for right now. Basically, pH affects zeta potential, interfacial surfactant packaging and curvature, affect droplet size and size distribution or even change emulsion type, high pH may also turn candelilla wax into an emulsifyin wax. That’s just to name a few things which are altered by pH and have a high impact on consistency and stability. Oh, and pH also influences microbial and chemical stability.

[Pharma]

Ketoconazole is an antifungal agent, it only kills fungi .

[Pharma]

Minoxidil works but not as a shampoo and it’s considered a drug depending on where you live . Other than that, there is no approved topical product that works from a scientifically proven point of view. “Traditionally”, there are dozen herbal concoctions which allegedly do (caffeine and menthol being amongst the better rated ones).

[Pharma]

You’re welcome!

Should you ever get it working (I wish you all the best that you do), just send me a bottle of your best olive oil 🙂 .

[Pharma]

Just borax, other preservatives require other percentages (some even more than 1%).

Could you check pH of the two products?

[Pharma]

1% borax is a lot (also not very healthy -> borax is banned for many applications and for sales to end-users in Europe for a reason) and will rise pH considerably.

0.1% as preservative (not to be used as sole preservative, though!) shouldn’t be exceeded IMHO. If you really want to go with 1%: Use a mixture of boric acid and borax to adjust pH and create a buffered solution.

[Pharma]

I did a quick&dirty google maps search and found 4 hits:

1 without a homepage

2 only selling native organic oil

And THIS ONE YOU CERTAINLY WANT TO CONTACT . They should be able to answer all your questions.

[Pharma]

Cyprus? My wife spend 5 years of her life there! I’ve never been on Cyprus but it must be beautiful!

Anyway: Don’t ask for squalane but who refines olive oil instead of producing virgin olive oil. Don’t tell them that one of the main waste products of refining (the last step is a distillation/deodorisation with water vapour) is an actual treasure or they’re going to keep it for themselves :smiley: ! Now, said by-product, the olive oil deodorizer distillate aka OODD, is a greasy/resiny/ugly/sticky/dark/smelly substance composed of many things such as unsaponifiables (sterols, tocopherols, and squalane), free fatty acids and mono- and diglycerides amongst other constituents (HERE‘s another reading with an easy to understand flow chart). Removing these compounds from oil makes it look and smell “better” (I don’t like it, it’s “empty” and tasteless) and increases stability and shelf life (on the other hand, it removes tocopherols and antioxidants and might actually ruin oxidation stability). It’s useful mostly for oils with a natural unpleasant taste or appearance. Chemically or high-temp extracted (cheap) olive oil is an example which requires refining because of bitter (I think it’s bitter but I’m not entirely sure) taste, almond oil is another oil which is often refined to increase shelf life. The resulting refined olive oil is rather bland and lacks that special, unique taste of good olive oil (refined almond and sunflower oils are also fairly tasteless and hence better suited for creams). As a side note, some oils are refined because they are toxic otherwise .

[Pharma]

My bet is also on isododecane. Put some packaging into a jar filled with it and see if the plastic deteriorates .

[Pharma]

They do feed the skin microbiota . The problem which arises is, that we neither know and nor can predict which ones (good or bad microbes) and we often don’t even know which microbes are good on (and in) person X and why they aren’t on (in) person Y. My wife never had worse skin (acne etc.) than when using natural cosmetics and cosmetics rich in “healthy” (i.e. polyunsaturated) oils. Her microbiota tips to a very non-symbiotic composition with the use of such oils. It’s a bit like probiotics and digestion, where we know that they are important/effective but can neither understand how exactly they affect intestinal microbiota nor how we can calculate/predict which one helps whom or against which disease. Maybe one day, we’re getting there but for now it’s trial and error. 10 years ago we thought that probiotics are just another hype .

[Pharma]

Okay, tons of olives is already something most don’t have 🙂 .

Do you process these to oil yourself? Ask around in your neighbourhood who can fractionate/distillate/refine (olive) oil. The required by-product is olive oil deodorised distillate (= OODD, you might also be able to source it directly from an oil refinery). OODD is highly enriched in squalane and serves as main starting material for further isolation/purification steps which do vary depending on available equipment, cost, batch size etc. HERE some reading, although a scientific publication, it’s not too techy/nerdy.

Another strategy is to simply use the OODD directly since it contains a bunch of other goodies. Might be worth to have it analysed so you know +/- what’s in there .

[Pharma]

Alcohol ether sulphates is an umbrella term and includes also SLES.

[Pharma]

Copper and tin? How many ppm are we talking about? If one can see it, then I’d be concerned about the quality of the raw materials!

[Pharma]

@Perry You got it spot on! I wouldn’t call it pedantic but pointless. It’s as much a personal preference as is the taste of lets say durian (which I love BTW).

@em88 Complain about their existence? You kidding? I said “I’m not a fan of PEGylated stuff” and then I compared PEGs with a winning horse (and IMHO they don’t have a “soul” but you don’t need souls to make cosmetics if you can use pixie dust instead :smiley: ). Obviously, if you like survival trips, then you don’t go there with a fully equipped trailer, a 4×4, and a machine gun but a tent, some basic equipment, and a fishing rod and that’s exactly the point of a hobby. C’mon dude, don’t play stupid: Not using water is way beyond reasonable!

[Pharma]

Calcium carbonate is used to raise pH (acidity is the worst thing for teeth) which it does very gently due to its minimal water solubility. Using trisodium citrate will also raise pH but being highly soluble will do so in a more aggressive manner and along the way, will liquefy the product.

The second reason why calcium carbonate is added is its use as abrasive and consistency agent. Diatomaceous earth would work as a replacement here, depending on quality.

[Pharma]

I only have experience with 3 roll mills for ointments and thicker creams with for example zinc oxide. These mills aren’t well suited for more liquid products since these are likely to drip from the rolls and down onto the bench or splatter everywhere depending on the speed of the rolls.

[Pharma]

@em88 I haven’t said they weren’t performing great or anything in this regard, read my above statement once more very carefully . As a pharmacist, I do use PEGs because of their many advantages but as a hobby formulator, I don’t like them. They feel like cheating because they take out the challenge and hence the fun with creating formulas. Regarding “soul”: As I also stated, there is no point in trying to discuss such matter. If they feel soulless to me, they simply do. If they have one for you, then that’s great for you and I don’t have any objection to your conception of the formulator’s universe.

[Pharma]

@Perry Objection is the wrong word, it’s subjectivity.

First: If you were to win a horse race in half the time on a farm nag, by avoiding half the obstacles, and without breaking into a sweat, then it takes the fun out of the game and I consider it cheating (even if it was a legal win).

Second: Ever tried to reason with a religious person? I’m not religious but I’m telling you, PEGs have no soul.

Third: Do I have any hard evidence or reasons holding up to a rational debate other than “It’s synthetic, it’s petrochemistry, it’s not sustainable”? Nope, I don’t.

[Pharma]

Most are vegan and cruelty free, especially the synthetic ones .

[Pharma]

It’s a 1:1 molar ratio.