OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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@letsalcido - ah good point. I missed that. But in case the OP wants to learn which ingredients to make, the raw material course will be good.
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In terms of cosmetics you can think of it like this.
Dyes = primarily used to color the formula
Pigments = primarily used to color the surface to which they are applied -
It’s a difficult question to answer because I don’t know what you consider “too much” or “too little.” This answer will differ for everyone.
The best answer that can be given is to use enough that you get a benefit but not so much that it starts to feel bad.
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Our course is currently closed to new students but if you want to join, you can sign up through here. https://chemistscorner.com/product/cosmetic-raw-materials-practical-cosmetic-formulating/
We cover all manner of important raw materials used in cosmetic products. If you have problems registering, let me know and I can get you manually added.
I will add however, that you should clarify your goals. Answer some of these questions.
1. What are your goals?
2. What do you hope to be able to do after learning about these raw materials?
If your goal is to get a job as a cosmetic formulator, then our class will help prepare you to do that. If your desire is to learn about ingredients and why they are used in products, our course will help with that.
If this is a hobby you are interested in and you just want to make products for yourself, you might be more satisfied with a place like https://www.swiftcraftymonkey.blog/blog/
Let me know if you have any other questions.
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As @letsalcido said, these things are not based on science. Cosmetic formulators do not refer to hair porosity (it’s hair damage) and hair protein sensitivity is not a thing. Different hair might react differently to hair protein treatments but I’ve never seen evidence of it.
It’s a bit like studying the stars. Astronomers and Astrologers both look at the sky and see the same things. But they have vastly different ways of assessing and explaining what they see. One approach is scientific. And one approach is…not.
If you want to learn what types of beliefs about hair are being propagated and what they mean, a good place to go is https://www.reddit.com/r/HaircareScience/ There are lots of discussions and consumer questions answered by a range of people with different experience in the subject.
It’s called hair science but that doesn’t mean it’s based on science. The discussion board has some misinformed stylists and hair “experts” who seem to have learned all they know from salon brand marketing departments and personal experience. So, there is both good and bad advice there.
It’s not necessarily a good place to get answers about hair treatments and what works, but for a formulator it is a good place to be informed about myths and dubious advice that consumers are being told.
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@ngarayeva001 - If cosmetic companies stopped selling useless products, the cosmetic industry would probably shrink by 20%. If they stopped selling unnecessary products, the industry would be less than half its current size.
But performance is only one measure of the value of a cosmetic treatment. Much of the allure of cosmetic products are the experience of using them. Masks (whether they do anything or not) provide an experience that many consumers enjoy.
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Is there a product on the market which is an example of what you want to create?
In general, cleansers remove things from skin so they aren’t very good for adding anything to the skin. If you want the effects of a lotion, you have to use a lotion after you’ve used the cleanse.
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How do your clients feel about bacteria and mold being applied to their faces?
Adding preservatives is done to make products safe. Vanilla extract and Cucumber extract are just the kind of thing that microbes eat and live on. If your clients don’t mind having potentially disease causing microbes in their products, you can skip the preservative. Hopefully, no one will catch anything or be injured by your product and sue you.
Yes, you need a preservative.
I know you have an anhydrous product and the probability of contamination and microbial growth is low. But it is not zero.
If one of your clients sues you, the first thing they will point out is that your product doesn’t contain a preservative so it is not protected from microbes. What defense would you have?
Keep the phenoxyethanol. It’s safer for your clients and for your business.
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@alchemist01 - I wasn’t recommending that product for this purpose, just giving it an example of dimethicone used as a skin barrier.
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Yes, I think in a shampoo the powdered dye level is on the order of 0.001% but it is heavily dependent on what dyes you’re using.
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I think that would depend on the quality and composition of the HDPE. It would also depend on the limits of what you would still consider deionized water. But the primary problem is that the pH of distilled water can change over time as it is exposed to air. It absorbs Carbon Dioxide to produce carbonic acid. So, check the pH before using.
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There are lots of skin protectants out there but if I recall correctly Dimethicone and Petrolatum would work pretty well as barriers. (for example)
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There are a lot of discussions so it’s hard to respond to every one. I agree that this is a good topic though.
I don’t think patents in the cosmetic industry help innovation much. I only say that because the products we use today are pretty much no different than the ones we use 20 or even 30 years ago. This is despite the fact that tens or even hundreds of thousands of patents have been issued in the last few decades.
So, maybe they hinder innovation?
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That is about an 8% weight loss. Some soap is sold with a moisture content of 5 - 15% so, I’m guessing the lost mass is evaporated water.
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@letsalcido - No, I don’t think it is necessarily stale because of a lack of research. I think technology is stale because we’ve run out of impactful questions. Just look at cleanser technology. We used to have soap. For centuries we didn’t know why it worked, just that it did. Then people would vary the starting oils or the lye source and see what they got. But there are only so many natural oils so eventually they ran out of soap options.
Then we figured out soap is a surfactant. And that opened up the world to liquid cleansers. We learned to vary the hydrocarbon chain lengths and the counterions. And now, we pretty much have tried them all.
Couple that with the fact that consumers aren’t very good at noticing subtle differences, and you’ve got a stale industry. It’s hard for me to see any amount of extra research that will fundamentally change most cosmetic product technology.
Research now is focused on creating sustainable/natural ways to do the things we’re already doing. It’s not focused on finding how to do new things.
So, maybe this is a saturation point as you suggested.
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@klangridge - I agree with what you’ve said.
One thing I think you are missing is that much of this problem originates with the beauty industry…by design.
Numerous brands build their entire brand around fearmongering. Drunk Elephant has nothing unique if it didn’t use fear marketing to set itself apart. Credo beauty offers no special benefits once you strip away their fear mongering.
And now that it has been demonstrated to work, big companies are getting into the fear mongering business. L’Oreal makes it a point to avoid sulfates, parabens, etc. and they put it in advertising further misinforming consumers.
I think this is an inevitable result of what happens when the technology in an industry gets stale. The products we use today in cosmetics are not much different than things that were sold 20 or 30 years ago. The only thing that sells products is story. And stories that scare people are effective and will continue to be propagated.
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If you have no water in the formula, how does it have a pH?
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I don’t think it is specified. But the concentration should be normalized and the easiest way to do that is to list everything by weight (mass really). If you list things by volume then you have to worry about density and it gets complicated.
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My advice is to keep your formula simple. Use FEWER ingredients. Don’t use 2 lighting ingredients. Start with 1. Once you get a product with 1 ingredient working, then you can add ingredients to see if there is an improvement.
I’d also say first focus on your deodorant. Once you have that made, then you add an active to see if you can give a lightening effect.
If you try to do too much in a formula you waste ingredients, time, and come up with a product that is not going to be optimized.
When you’re first starting out…keep it simple.
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I agree this list is alarmist. Listing parabens is ridiculous. While the University of California is presumably a reliable source, you also find lots of people in academia who are easily manipulated by groups like the EWG. I don’t find this information passed on by them to be reliable.
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If you are selling products to consumers, you have to follow the labeling guidelines that everyone else follows. And if you’re selling treatments for acne, then you have to follow the treatments listed out in the Anti Acne product Monograph. https://www.fda.gov/drugs/status-otc-rulemakings/rulemaking-history-otc-acne-drug-products
Do you have examples of where a brand is doing something you see as breaking the rules?
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@ngarayeva001 - I guess it comes down to what you mean by “active ingredients.” I lump functional and active ingredients in the same category. If there is some specific function that an ingredient is supposed to do, it’s easier to have an opinion.
For example, one benefit is skin lightening. Evidence shows that for skin lightening, the best ingredient is hydroquinone. Now, some will suggest kojic acid, retinol, niacinamide, etc. but if you are just looking for what works best in the most situations, nothing is better than hydroquinone.
So, if you pick the category of benefit, I could give you my opinion of which ingredient is best for that.
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@Pharma - you’re right! @lewhitak - I can’t really say I have a favorite silicone alternative. That’s mostly because the term “silicone” refers to a wide variety of compounds to do different things and the term “alternative” implies some kind of function. To give an answer to the ‘best silicone alternative’ I’d need to know which silicone is in the formula being used for what function. There are a lot of things that silicones do including shine, slip, detangling, defoaming, TEWL prevention, emollience, solvent, etc.
I will add that in my previous response I referred Dimethicone & Carbomer both of which have numerous variants. The exact one you use would depend on the other things in the formula.
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@esthetician922 - Ha!
I could see how someone would get that impression. In truth, there are ingredients I think are impressive in terms of performance. (I actually like pretty much all chemicals as I find them fascinating).
But here are some examples of ingredients that I think are impressive…
Petrolatum - nothing better for preventing TEWL
Mineral oil - best emollient
Glycerin - best humectant
Sodium Lauryl Sulfate - most efficient cleanser
Methylparaben - most effective, least reactive preservative against fungi
DMDM Hydantoin - most effective preservative against bacteria
Dimethicone - best silicone for hair
Zinc oxide - best all-around sunscreen active
Carbomer - best gelling agent
EDTA - best chelating agent
Glyceryl Monostearate - best pearling agent
PVP - best overall hair holding polymerI could go on but that will give you a sense of what I think is impressive.
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@Oyin - Welcome to the forum and I would like to encourage you to keep asking questions and learning as you embark on your formulating journey.
The first thing you need to realize is that if you limit yourself to what you consider “natural” ingredients, you will have a very difficult time formulating any cosmetic product that will be worthwhile.
Cosmetic products are not natural. Companies who say they formulate natural are exaggerating (at best) and lying (at worst). There are no lipstick bushes or body wash trees.
But if you are serious about learning to formulate, and are willing to fully learn the craft, there are lots of options for thickening oils. Read this. https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/388/pcc-diverse-technologies-polymeric-oil-thickeners/