OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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Yes, you may be able to use xanthan gum in place of HEC. But it depends on the system. You will not necessarily get exactly the same feel or performance.
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You seem to have a misunderstanding of what pH means.
I would suggest you first go through this video about pH.1. SSL is a salt. In water its ions dissociate into Na+ and Luaroyl Lactate-. There is an equilibrium that happens and changing the pH can affect the solubility of the Lauroyl Lactate, but not much.
pH and solubility are independent factors. While you can adjust the solubility of some compounds with pH, nothing you do to pH will affect the solubility of a compound like mineral oil.
Also, HLB does not really apply to charged surfactants. HLB is most relevant to nonionic materials. When there is a charged ion, additional factors that affect solubility come into play.
2. See this video about dissociation of materials in water. Basically, in a more basic solution you push the equilibrium of the dissociation of Zn (Lactate) or Zn PCA more towards the salt side which means in a more basic solution there are less Zn2+ ions available to provide the antimicrobial effect.
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No. In pretty much all places there are no governmental regulations specifically about natural. Although the FTC has sued a few people for calling their products 100% natural or “all natural” and then including clearly synthetic ingredients. So if you are going to market natural products, you better be able to justify why you call something natural.
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@Dr_Sara - It’s ok to disagree. No one here has a monopoly on the truth & my opinion about specific topics are just what I believe based on the research / experience I’ve been exposed to. I’m always willing to update my beliefs when evidence suggests I should.
But as to the delivery benefits of soap, I’m not convinced.
First, I agree with you that surfactants can act as penetration enhancers. And while we can hypothesize that that penetration enhancing will deliver ingredients to the skin, that is not the most likely thing that will happen. To get skin penetration enhancement the ingredient has to remain on the skin for some amount of time. Soap (and body wash) is put on the skin, then rinsed off. There isn’t enough time to leave any significant amount of whatever ingredient you are trying to deliver. At least, I’ve never seen a study to demonstrate that.
Second, if a soap is leaving a film on the skin that means it is not cleaning the skin. Cleaning skin and leaving things behind are conflicting goals. If you are making a soap that works as a cleanser, then it is removing anything that you are hoping to deliver (especially water soluble ingredients). If you use a soap and it leaves a film, that means it’s not working. You would have been better off to use a leave-on skin moisturizer after you use soap that works.
I would be curious though to see studies that demonstrate my beliefs are incorrect. Can you point to a study where a soap with deliverable ingredients was compared to the same soap without the deliverable ingredients and it provided some benefit to the skin?
I don’t believe that it is beyond the realm of possibilities that if you pack a soap full of oils or other nonpolar ingredients that you can get some of that left behind on skin. I would just say that then your soap isn’t cleaning the skin. You would have been better off first cleaning your skin, then using a product afterwards to deliver whatever ingredient you were hoping to have left on the skin.
One area I did a lot of work in was a 2-in-1 shampoo. We were able to show some silicones were deposited and cationic polymers and that there was some slight benefit over just using a shampoo without those ingredients. But the reality was that no 2-in-1 shampoo ever worked as well as shampooing the hair then using a conditioner.
Change My View - If trying to deliver an ingredient to skin or hair, cleansers are not a good way to do that.
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Yes, those are all marketing BS claims. Soap cleans the skin. It removes everything it can from the skin. If you put extra ingredients in your soap, soap will not care if those ingredients are meant to affect the skin. Soap will remove those ingredients too. They will have exactly zero effect on the skin. They may have an effect on the soap by making it less effective at cleaning the skin.
This is also true of putting oils or water soluble ingredients in shampoos and body washes. Those ingredients will not do anything & just get washed away.
The exceptions are things like Silicones and Cationic Polymers. Detergents like soap are not able to solubilize silicones so they can get left behind. And cationic polymers are big enough molecules that they can also get left behind.
But for the vast majority fo ingredients added to soaps and cleansers, they all get washed down the drain and do nothing.
I find that misinformed people are not easily swayed by scientific information. If someone benefits from their customers or fans believing their nonsense, they will not appreciate people correcting them whether it’s based on science or not.
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@jr93 - you might find this information helpful.
https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/499/pcc-molecular-encapsulation-cyclodextrin/ -
You might try one of the Celluosic thickeners. (HPMC or HEC)
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Google “emulsifier HLB” and find ones that match the required HLB of the oils you want to use.
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@nerdygirl - regarding Aloe, I don’t think it matters in terms of noticeable performance. I’d stick with the form in the glycerite because the extra preservative better ensures safety.
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You’ve got to match the HLB values.
The HLB value for IPM is 11.5. The closest to the HLB for polysorbate is Polysorbate 85. Yes, it can be left on the skin.The HLB for C12-15 ALKYL BENZOATE is 13. To use polysorbates for that material, you’ll need to blend Polysorbate 85 and Polysorbate 60.
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Without a question, there isn’t much advice to give.
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Before anyone can answer your questions you need to first tell us specifically…what product do you want to launch? What do you want it to do?
“I want to launch a new product” is way too vague.
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@LincsChemist - I agree that is a bit more liberal than I would want to be about challenge testing but that is because the manufacturer is taking the risk, not the testing house.
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To get “pure” compounds like the ones you are describing, I’d check a place like Sigma Aldrich. And this aggregated site might help too.
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@niecie2k - There is not an easy answer to this. Mostly, you have to learn why an ingredient is added and what it is supposed to be doing in the formula. Then you can look for alternatives.
For example, say you wanted to replace Sodium Lauryl Sulfate from a body wash. You would first have to know what it is and what it does. It’s an anionic surfactant that removes oil from surfaces and creates foam. Then you have to look up alternatives. You would start with other anionic surfactants (SLES, ALES, etc) and then branch out from there. But it all starts with knowing the chemical composition of what you want to replace and the function in the formula.
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@ngarayeva001 - I guess there isn’t really a lot of prestige in researching some of the basic questions of cosmetic science. The only ones motivated to push this research are companies that want to sell raw materials or cosmetic products. Or there are the researchers who want to “prove” that exposure to cosmetics are causing cancer.
Unfortunately, unless you’re selling a product, there is no money in basic cosmetic science research.
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@zacchaeus - no apology required. I was curious what convinced you. I have a certain belief about ingredients and when someone suggests something different I always like to find out how they came to these conclusions. I’m willing to update my beliefs if there is scientific evidence to do so.
I’ve not seen the study by DuPont to which you are referring.
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@ngarayeva001 - now that’s an excellent way to answer that question.
The fact that it was done by a P&G researcher and the company has put a large push against Niacinamide as the hero ingredient, I (like you) remain a bit skeptical. Interestingly, much of the research that looks at this exact question has been funded by P&G.
Things that make you go hmmmmm.
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I would start with asking, what do you want the serum to do?
You have a lot of ingredients in there and possibly have created something that isn’t stable. It’s best to use a minimum number of ingredients at first. Then add ingredients when you want some additional function.For example, you have Aloe and Glycerin and Sodium Hyaluronate which are all going to be humectant moisturizers. Why use all of them instead of just one?
Why use Niacinamide and Acetyl Glucosamine and Green Tea extract when they all are used for the same functions? Ask yourself, would you be able to tell any difference if you only used Niacinamide and didn’t use the other two? If you can’t tell a difference, then there is no reason to use both ingredients.
Now, if you have some specific purpose for adding any ingredient, then it’s worth testing whether that ingredient actually provides that benefit. If it doesn’t (in a way you can measure or sense) then it is not worth including the ingredient in your formula.
When it comes to formulating, less is more. (or less ingredients is better).
A formula should be as simple as possible but no simpler than that.
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Coconut fragrance is made up of different chemicals than your previous fragrance. It’s most likely that one of the chemicals in that new fragrance oxidized.
This illustrates why whenever you make a formulation change, whether it is an ingredient change or even a chemical supplier change, you have to do stability testing.
Most likely, if you want to use that fragrance you’ll need an antioxidant. Or, if you work for a big company, you send them a batch of unfragranced base and they customize a fragrance for your formula.
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Live webinar starts tomorrow! @chemicalmatt and I did our test run and it looks like everything is ready to go.
If you have a question you can post it on this thread or in this following link.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfc4zVhSaDDHzuQ5w0wctFtZiirZ2keh2LwuGUc8ZIan2U5rg/viewformTalk to you tomorrow!
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Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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You have a lot of ingredients in your formula so any one of them can be a problem. The sorbitan olivate has an HLB of 4 and the Cetearyl olivate has an HLB of around 8. Your oils are somewhere around 7 so maybe your ratio is off but it may also be fine. I didn’t do the exact calculations but it seems like you are in the ball park. It’s possible you don’t have enough emulsifier in there but it’s not in there to make an emulsion, rather just to help the product get removed from the skin during use.
Most likely you do have too much grape seed oil. I’d swap it out with something that has fewer double bonds to oxidize.
Not sure about the clay thickener. That could be a problem. Also, the quality of the shea butter you use could be a problem.
Ultimately, you may have to do a formula knockout experiment to see what is causing the problem.
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It comes down to the water activity so you’d have to know how much water is in the system. See this video for an explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3Xf45CeCQ0Dow suggests 25% PG to reduce chance of bacterial growth to almost nothing.
https://dowservice.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/11499/related/1This is not a cosmetic product but the graph still holds true of PG solutions.
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Yes, theoretically, those ones you listed could work at a pH range 4-6 (although you should stay closer to pH 5 or below for Benzyl alcohol.)