OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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Yeah, you need a proper preservative and a chelating agent (like disodium EDTA)
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It would help if you gave us a listing of all the ingredients you’re using and even better with the percentages.
Are you using salt? That can affect viscosity. Are you neutralizing the Carbomer? How much HEC are you using?
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Happy New Year to you too! Thank you to everyone who participates in this forum. It only works because of all of your contributions.
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@qwerty - This is the story that Olaplex tells and they were convincing enough to the people at the patent office to be granted a patent on the technology. Of course, getting a patent is not the same as proving something scientifically correct. Patents aren’t science. Getting one is more about convincing a non-subject expert patent clerk of the value of your invention than it is about proving the science.
Anyway, I’m not actually making any judgement on whether the product does what it says it does or not. I have no reason to think that it doesn’t but I remain highly skeptical about whether what it does actually has a noticeable impact. The fact that they so heavily market the product suggests that it doesn’t work quite as miraculously as they portend.
But what I said was these products do not do “anything noticeable to consumers beyond hair conditioning…”
Unless there are dramatic changes, consumers just aren’t very good at noticing. A consumer can’t actually tell a difference between their hair treated with a good conditioner or one treated with Olaplex. So, Wella could just be making a good conditioner and dressing it with some plausible science story. If it works for Olaplex, it will probably work for them too. -
Fantasy.
You have to understand, synthetic ingredients were invented to correct the shortcomings of natural ingredients. In almost any area where there is a natural ingredient that works best, that ingredient is used. (e.g. Glycerin, beeswax, carnauba wax, salt, water, etc).
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Ultimately, you could do a Knockout Experiment to isolate the cause.
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Yes, we always listed the time of day each ingredient is added to a production batch.
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Interestingly, OGX used to be called “Organix” until they were sued in California for implying it was “organic”. The marketing/sales people involved in this brand used to work for my old company on brands like Tresemme and VO5.
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It could be some compound in your fragrance oil. I’d try to make a batch without fragrance and see if you still have the problem. Also, it could be a microbial contamination problem. Do a microbial test to see if the pink solution is contaminated.
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@Bill_Toge - I remember using a lot of phenolphthalein in organic chemistry! Never used it in formulating though.
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When I make batches, to prevent water loss I put saran wrap over the top and cover the gap with aluminum foil. That way I can easily add ingredients without it being uncovered for very long.
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Yes, when a shampoo is too drying try reducing the amount of surfactant. It’s difficult to tell but you might have as much as 20% active surfactant. Most shampoos have anywhere from 8-12% active surfactant.
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One piece of this puzzle that you are missing is that “moisturization” isn’t merely a thing you can measure in a lab with an instrument. Much of your perception of moisturization is created during the experience of using a product. There may just be something about the process of using hand sanitizers or the feel of the alcohol or the product that convinces your brain that it is more moisturizing. When in reality, it may not actually be more moisturizing in any objectively measurable way.
This happens a lot with cosmetics.
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@qwerty - the assumption you’re making here is that the Olaplex product does anything noticeable to consumers beyond hair conditioning or even that the Brazillian Blowout actually lasts longer than if someone just straightened their hair and didn’t wash it as often.
The Wella strategy may be taking advantage of the fact that these products don’t actually work in any meaningful way that consumers can tell.
Just because brands have patents or treatments are done at salons doesn’t mean they are providing real benefits. They could just be part of the marketing story.
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Keratin in a shampoo will have no noticeable benefit as far as I’ve seen in practice. It is water soluble and shampoo pretty much washes it all away. If you want smooth and shine from a shampoo, you’ll need a silicone, a cationic polymer or both. Keratin won’t make a shampoo better.
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@amitvedakar - What are you hoping keratin will do in a formula?
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Emulsions are destabilized by electrolytes.
Basically, using salts like potassium sorbate and sodium benzoate disrupts the micellar structure of your emulsion causing particles to combine, get larger & eventually the system separates. This is why formaldehyde donors and parabens have traditionally been used in emulsion products.
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@abierose - The nice thing about panthenol is that you can pretty much add it to any water-based formula. Also, P&G has done such a great job of publicizing the ingredient so most consumers have heard of it and have a positive impression of it. That makes it most effective at telling a story and giving consumers one more reason to buy a product.
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“Bug food” is any ingredient on which microbes can eat and grow. This can be sugars, carbohydrates, proteins, or a variety of other hydrocarbons found in cosmetics formulas.
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@Leo and @MarkBroussard - great discussion! I appreciate both perspectives. It is very difficult in cosmetic science to discover something that is “real” and not just marketing hype from an ingredient supplier or cosmetic manufacturer.
I tend to find @Leo‘s position more in line with my own, although I’m not quite as cynical. I agree with @MarkBroussard and don’t think studies published in journals are “fake” or made up. I believe the data is real & the scientists who do the studies are mostly sincere.
But there is certainly a positive bias. No raw material company is going to publish a study which proves their ingredient has no benefit. This file-drawer effect is found throughout science, but it is particularly strong in cosmetic science where companies are conducting studies to support specific outcomes.
One other thing worth pointing out is that consumers are terrible at detecting differences, especially differences over time. They are easily influenced with stories and packaging and pricing. The fact that a dermatologist saw some benefit over 8 weeks or a lab measurement showed a statistical difference matters little if the consumer doesn’t notice. If you can match the aesthetics, it would make more economical sense to create a formula using Glycerin with a splash of Hyaluronic Acid. You get the same story at a fraction of the cost & consumers won’t notice anyway.
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@abierose - It’s not surprising you haven’t heard that vitamins don’t do anything as they are very popular ingredient put in hair products. You have to first understand that hair is dead. Putting vitamins on hair fibers is about as useful as putting vitamins on your shoe laces. For water soluble vitamins (like vitamin C), the ingredient just gets rinsed down the drain. For oil soluble vitamins, well, those get emulsified by the detergent and washed down the drain too.
Yes, I would include Panthenol in that opinion. Certainly, some formulators would disagree with me but I’ve never seen compelling, scientifically controlled evidence that Panthenol included in a hair product (especially rinse-off products) has any effect that a consumer would notice. It’s a gimmick ingredient made most famous by the hair brand Pantene. And the original supplier Rhom and Haas certainly did a lot to publicize the benefits of using it. But there aren’t any, in my view. I’m always open to new data or research but I haven’t found any compelling evidence to suggest panthenol makes any bit of difference in a hair product, except giving the marketers a story to talk about and increasing the cost of the formula of course.
And as far as courses to take, I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the course we put together - Practical Cosmetic Formulating, but if you wanted to get a sense of my teaching style before purchasing the course, you can see the free course I collaborated on. Learn Cosmetic Formulation. Just realize that I have a particular perspective and cater to people who are interested in making products that could actually be sold and produced in the cosmetic industry.
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I don’t recall the spindle or RPM but I think it was T-bar B. But we definitely used the Heliopath when measuring gels.
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Lack of consistency is why you generally don’t find hydrosols used by large manufacturers.
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The price you charge depends on a lot of factors.
Some CM will give development time for free with the guarantee of future production. (or charge $500 that is credited to future production).
But that arrangement assumes you have a lot of customers.
Some formulators would charge ~$25,000 but then give up the IP.
I would guess somewhere between $1000 - $2000 but it just depends.