OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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To answer the initial question I’d vote ‘waste of resources and money’.
If I were formulating an anti-aging skin cream and wanted to include Hyaluronic Acid or Ferulic Acid in the formula for their label appeal, I would make a really good moisturizing cream (using stuff like petrolatum, mineral oil and glycerin) then put a drop of either of those ingredients in the formula.You would be hard pressed to find any consumer (or even a dermatologist) who would be able to tell a difference in performance after 6 weeks use on a blinded basis.I would love to see this study done. -
Exactly. Back in the day when the FDA was created there were lots of poisonous things used to color cosmetics and drugs. And some people were being disfigured or dying. So, the FDA is extremely strict about what is allowed as a colorant in food, drugs and cosmetics. In fact, colorants are the most highly regulated ingredient you’ll find in cosmetics.
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Interesting discussion.
I’d just like to point out that the studies referenced above are not compelling & I remain unconvinced of the benefit of adding Hyaluronic Acid or Ferulic Acid (beyond standard moisturizing). I could be convinced but there are a few nagging issues.Some of these were not controlled studies. I’m left wondering was it the HA or FA that was having the effect or was it the cream base they were put in? Was it the daily application of a product that caused the effect? Was the HA or FA working as a moisturizer or humectant? How would it compare to a Petrolatum lotion?With all of these ingredients and products we scientists need to keep our skeptical eyes open. -
@otherhalf - ah, certainly there are lots of ingredients that affect the metabolism of skin. But there are scant few that affect the skin when delivered from a topical treatment.
Vitamin C doesn’t stay stable long enough in a cream to have any real effect.Vitamin E doesn’t penetrate deep enough to have much noticeable effect.And the thing about cosmetics is it’s all in the way the claim is written. It would be illegal to say that your skin cream “removes wrinkles” but it is perfectly ok to say your skin cream “diminished the appearance of wrinkles.”@belassi - sure you could use Proteasyl TP, you just can’t say that it will remove wrinkles. Plus, I doubt that it has much effect when delivered from a topical treatment. Just because an ingredient can “inhibit elastase and collegenase” doesn’t mean that it will. It has to get down deep enough in the Dermis to have an effect. This rarely happens.Also, the claim “inhibits elastase and collagenase”. What does this exactly mean? This is a typical undefined claim that you find with antiaging ingredients. To be able to support what the claim implies you have to know what is the baseline production level of Elastase or Collagenase. Who knows this for any person? No one. Then to “inhibit production” you would have to quantify before and after when delivered from a topical skin cream. How would you do this?Realistically, you can probably claim ANY ingredient “inhibits” these enzymes. It’s just a puffery claim.@otherhalf - while hair is dead, the hair follicles are not dead. If you could restart the growth in the follicle you could restore hair. -
@Belassi - in the US cosmetics are not allowed to have an effect on the metabolism of cells. If they do they are drugs and are regulated as such.
Correct me if I’m wrong but there really are no giant corporations offering products with leading edge materials. In my opinion there are 2 reasons for this…1. The materials are not measurably effective when delivered topically2. Companies can make just as much money selling a good moisturizer and implying anti-aging claims as they can selling products that cost a lot more make & test but might have some unnoticeable additional benefit.@otherhalf - no problems, comment away. If people tire of you they’ll just stop reading. There is no problem using green tea powder except in your first comment you said “I’m making a low pH facial cleanser formula and currently using powdered green tea as a colorant…”
If you’re using it for some other reason beyond being a colorant, that is fine. You just can’t use it as a colorant. -
@pepe - “Can you tell me please what if I write ”deep moisturizing” instead of ”moisturizing” on the label??”
There are no specific rules on how you substantiate claims so it is up to every company to come up with some rational on how they substantiate a claim. If you make the claim ‘deep moisturizing’ you could simply show that one of the ingredients you use penetrates hair and the support for the claim is satisfied. -
Good point Bob.
There are some questions in which you can say “No, that won’t work”There are very few questions in which you can say “This will work”Formulating is complicated and every formulation preservative requirements are unique due to the % of ingredients you use, your method of manufacture, the quality of the raw materials you start with, and a host of other things. You need to test your specific formula.As far as the product you are describing, if the consumer adds water to the formula just before using then you don’t really have to worry about further preservation. When they use it up right away there wouldn’t be time for any microbes to grow to a significant amount. However, if you have them add water and they keep the product around for a few weeks, then you could have a problem. -
I agree with @bobzchemist . If you are using any ingredient specifically as a colorant then you are limited to what is on the list of the FDA approved colorant list.
As far as I know green tea is not an approved colorant. -
The phrase “your product isn’t stable” is rather broad. It just means some characteristic of your product has significantly deviated from it’s initial condition.
In your case, it’s a fragrance stability problem. In other cases it’s an emulsion stability problem or maybe a microbiological stability problem.In all cases of significant change, there is a stability problem. -
I agree. If your fragrance doesn’t stand up to a freeze-thaw cycle, your product isn’t stable. Time to get a new fragrance.
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The PCPC publishes stability test guidelines but they charge for it.
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This is a pretty standard formula but you should have the right equipment (beakers, hot plate and mixer).
Assuming you have that you have to mix all the water based ingredients in one phase and the oil based ingredients in the other.Heat to 75C, blend water and oil phases, mix at least 20 minutes. Cool down and when the batch is below 45C, add DMDM Hydantoin and fragrance.But Bob is right, you should have a working knowledge of all the ingredients you are using before making the formula.Perry, 44 -
While it’s an interesting concept, I think this suffers from the naturalistic fallacy. Just because it’s the way nature made it doesn’t mean it’s the best way. There are lots of things humans have created that out perform evolution. For example, shoes are a much better way to protect feet than the skin we evolved down there.
The thing about the composition of skin is that it is more than just the individual components. It also matters how those components are structured. Putting oils on your skin that have exactly the same composition is like putting thread on a shirt that has a hole in it. The thread doesn’t do anything for the damaged shirt if it’s not stitched properly.But anyway, I don’t think these lipids have proven themselves as effective at moisturizing as petrolatum or mineral oil. -
Right. The only thing you can rely on is doing an actual stability test. (8 week minimum)
Even stability tests are only approximations of what will happen and they are not guarantees that your formula will be stable. -
I suspect we’re not too, too far away from an FDA definition of “Natural” for cosmetics and it will be based on the ECOCert standard.
@MarkBroussard - The FDA wasn’t able to get a definition for “hypoallergenic” so I doubt very much there will ever be an FDA definition for “natural”. But maybe in the EU that might happen.
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Great info @MarkBroussard!
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I know Vegans consider beeswax to be animal derived. Not sure about other natural philosophies. It hasn’t seem to hurt Burt’s Bees’ natural standing.
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Well then the beeswax / castor oil combination should work for you.
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What do you want the ointment to do?
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It seems we agree that hybridization and GMO are both genetic modifications. We just differ on the result. I don’t agree that there is a difference, certainly when it comes to safety.Just because something could occur in nature doesn’t mean that it is safe. For example, the hybridization of African bees with European bees didn’t turn out so well. Hybridization is just as “unsafe” as GMO. In some ways it’s less safe because there is more chance of a mutation plus they are much less regulated.You are correct though, we’ll find out eventually. GMO technology is here and it’s not going away.
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Fixed it. Thanks
Perry, 44 -
Excellent!
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I don’t find the terms confusing, I just don’t see any difference. In the end whichever technique you use you end up with a genetically modified organism.
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I’m going to go with…No.
I mean it’s probably a fine enough ingredient and it can have some moisturizing benefits. But it is not going to work better than good ol’ Petrolatum and Mineral Oil.And it’s an animal derived ingredient. I’m not sure how well this will play with the Vegan crowd.