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cosmetics that heal and improve, a discussion from the side of biology
First of all I am brand new so I guess I will introduce myself.
I started as a med student, tried it for 2 years and hated it, changed my degree to biology, got a masters specialized in reproductive biology, moved on to get a PhD in molecular biology applied to stem cell biology, and an eternal fan of skin care.European born but citizen of where the heart is.Perusing cosmetic aisles is often a gamble. I usually search products that can actively help my particular skin type and conditions and find that most of the products offered are just very veyr poor.I know that the general public will probably just get what is best marketed, but it would be nice to one day find products that not only are science base but also, public oriented (that can bring their science to the public).My experience in the US was great, I found that it was very easy to find products that worked, that were well formulated and accessible, in Europe it is really disheartening, skin care is treated like a black box of hocus pocus and most of the time I have no idea of what I am getting.I would love to hear the opinion of people that actually created their lines on some of the products that I will be pointing out bellow. Do you include them in your lines? And if you don’t, why not?Niacinamide at 4% formulation and at bellow 4.5 pH can actively help with PIHVitamin C, also at acidic pH, actively stimulates collagen productionAzelaic acid was found to be effective for acne treatment and for rosacea.Ceramides and hyaluronic acid should go hand in hand as emollients for all skin types.AHA, BHA and GHA are unbeatable as resurfacing agents, do you prefer to create mechanical scrubs instead of chemical ones?recently Avene changed the formulation of one of their favorites amongst skin care minded people to an unusable product and I still can’t understand why.Why include antioxidants and other things in physical sunscreens when on average their pH is too high to have any of these products to do anything to the user?Thank you very much for the time you took to read through my post.Can’t wait to hear your opinions. -
36 Replies
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Welcome Otherhalf. The answer to your question is … Yes. I use nearly every one of the ingredients you have listed above in my formulations.
Let’s start with your question: “Why include antioxidants and other things in physical sunscreens when on average their pH is too high to have any of these products to do anything to the user?”Why don’t you clarify exactly what your point is in the question, in particular the phrase “when on average their pH is too high to have any of these products …” The pH of what exactly are you referring to … the optimal pH for the antioxidants? Or, are you referring the pH of the final formulation? -
All the physical sunscreens I got my hands on so far have a pH of 7 to 8 (roche, roc, aptonia, biore, innisfree, Nivea, avene, uriage, lierac, shiseido)
Some of them had
-Niacinamide
-Vitamin c
-Salicilic acid
-retinol
Which all required acid ph to actually work as actives.
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Why don’t you post the ingredients list of one or two of those sunscreens. I am assuming that the actives are either Zinc Oxide and/or Titanium Dioxide. Titanium Dioxide has a pH of 7.3 to 8.3.
As for Vitamin C, if they are including Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate as the source of Vitamin C, it has the best stability at pH 7.0.Niacinamide has a pH of 6 to 7.5 as a 5% aqueous solution.Salicylic Acid has a pH of 3.5 to 4.0 in solution, but I can’t think why you would add Salicylic Acid to a sunscreen unless you are targeting acneic skin.It all depends on the formulation and the intended function of the ingredient in the formulation. -
Sodium asxorbyl sulphate doesn’t seem to have enough research so far to support the same functions as other forms ( in our case for example, when we were testing vitamin c for media formulations that were serum free or fbs based this did not perform well so it was discarded)
Lol I have no access to these sunscreen formulations, I empirically accessed the pH (yes they are all zinc based) when I had them with me. I just didn’t understand why those things were added if effectively did nothing.
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I can’t edit lol
We never got niacinamide to have any effect on melanocytes on any ph over 6.5.
And the salicilic acid on the sunscreen was for rosacea if I remember correctly. Which makes sense due to the anti inflammatory properties.
Not sure how they avoided photosensitivity induced by the SA…
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So, if I understand correctly, you do not have the formulas and you did not actually measure the pH?
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Yes, if it was for Rosacea (or acne, for that matter), then Salicylic Acid would make sense. Photosensitivity is not much of an issue with beta-hydroxy acids … that really is an issue with alpha-hydroxy acids and retinoids.
I think Niacinamide is most effective in the pH 5.0 to 6.0 range. So, not seeing much to any effect at pH 6.5+ makes sense. -
Since the sunscreens you were working with were all Zinc Oxide-based, it makes sense that the pH of the final formulation would be above 7.0 since Zinc Oxide becomes quite soluble at pH levels below 7.0 and dissociates. Since the whole point is to have the Zinc Oxide particles sit on the surface of the skin and reflect sunlight …
I can see the addition of Niacinamide and Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate making sense in these sunscreens, but not Salicylic Acid. -
Marc
I am a biologist, not a chemist, I tested my own susncreens when I doubted their own claims
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Perhaps I do not understand your point … what testing did you do on the sunscreens?
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I tested the pH to check if it was within the range of activity of the added actives.
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I see. I would not presume that because the pH of the product is above 7.0 that it necessarily negates the effects of ingredients such as Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate or Niacinamide. Unless there is a chemical reactant in the formulation that interacts with these ingredients and chemically modifies them, when applied to the skin, they may well indeed have the intended effect.
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@otherhalf. If you tested the products, why you cannot get the ingredients list. Also with the product name you can find it in many websites. If you are planning to make and commercialize sunscreens in the US, remember these are consider over the counter drugs and therefore need to be produced accordingly.
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@ Ruben
I don’t make any cosmetics ah ah
I am just interested in them, this waiver a year ago when I was able to get samples from the actual products.
There is knowledge from the biology side that I don’t know how to translate to the chemical side since it is out of my area of expertise.
I am just here as an amateur with an interest.
@ Marc
That makes senseJust another question!
From a theoretical stand point cerave pm is one of the most balanced well formulated facial moisturizers around for its price range.
Is there any European equivalent? If not, why?
Thank you!
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In what way do you consider Cerave PM a balanced and well formulated moisturizer? Is your “theoretical stand point” based on the marketing claims of the product (ie. patented delivery system, forms a protective layer, restores skin barrier, etc) or clinical studies?
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Anyone else noticed a difference in skincare formulations EU resp US? I only have experienced are some minor regulatory differences.
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“Minor” regulatory differences? I’m going to die laughing!
I investigated the UK with a view to exporting our products and found that provided we comply with the list of banned or restricted ingredients, we have no problem, unlike the USA.Basically in the EU the attitude is: “Provided the product is not harmful, then any therapeutic claims made for it are the purview of the advertising standards authority.”Whereas in the USA, it appears that one has to first prove therapeutic claims - at immense cost - which means that that market is locked up by huge companies with deep pockets. -
@aurora
It has all the right ingredients ( hyaluronic acid, ceramides and niacinamide) at amazing ph.
The texture makes it very suitable and adaptable to a very broad range of skin types (Fitzpatrick rating independent)
I just wish there were more likewise products.
The second best I found so far have the most horrible marketing statement and way to reach clients so they will never leave anonymity. Perfect price range to be ubiquitous as well, just sad.
Edit: just to add, and please keep in mind that these are small scientist at play experiments we did during incubation periods of our own experiments.
Water alone brought the skin phs higher than 6.5, those that but a toner on their face got the pH back to under 6 in less than 30 minutes, for othose without the toner it took as much as 5 hours.
I thought it was pretty cool to see how much cosmetics can do for you.
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Because of what you describe the European market of cosmetics is suffering a shift.
People that know a bit more about skin care are refusing to buy products from the EU.
(the avene formula change was just an example).
Iherb, vitacost and paula’s choice for instance are becoming some of the biggest, when it comes to put cosmetics in people’s homes.
It is a quite interesting time. I would love to see the EU follow the us example.
Of course I m seeing things from a very different angle from your own.
I am on the side of people that just want things that work and no bullcrap.
The us owns the best developed products.
There is no cream in the EU that I would buy right now lol. Neither any of the people I know.
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@ Belassi
According to Commission Regulation (EU) No 655/2013 claims on cosmetic products shall conform to the following common criteria:1. Legal compliance2. Truthfulness3. Evidential support4. Honesty5. Fairness6. Informed decision-makingAnd I am not convinced there is so much difference between US/EU skincare products, the product above has normal ingredients and I think EU chemists also can manage to produce a product with hyaluronic acid, ceramides and niacinamide at an “amazing pH” !
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I like to try leading edge materials, things like polypeptides and human growth factor, but US style regulations would prohibit all that. I don’t see why it should be the preserve of giant corporates or the rich.
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I am sure they can, they just haven’t yet in a way that can remotely compete with what you find in the US.
Or they are probably like noreva. All the right things, no way to reach costumers lol.
But like I asked earlier in the thread please! If you are aware of an European dupe please let me know! It is a hassle to order stuff from the us for the months I am stuck in Europe
Edit: and BTW! I feel like I am completely derailing your forum, I am really sorry, please let me know if you would like me to tone down my participation!
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@Belassi - in the US cosmetics are not allowed to have an effect on the metabolism of cells. If they do they are drugs and are regulated as such.
Correct me if I’m wrong but there really are no giant corporations offering products with leading edge materials. In my opinion there are 2 reasons for this…1. The materials are not measurably effective when delivered topically2. Companies can make just as much money selling a good moisturizer and implying anti-aging claims as they can selling products that cost a lot more make & test but might have some unnoticeable additional benefit.@otherhalf - no problems, comment away. If people tire of you they’ll just stop reading. Regarding using “leading edge materials” … Have you ever heard the saying “Pioneers wear arrows”? @perry
Vitamin c changes fibroblast metabolism
Vitamin e changes metabolism
Q factors change metabolism
These are just a few examples.
What do you mean?
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