[OldPerry]

Yes, what did you use it to do and how much did you use?

[OldPerry]

Very interesting.  I wonder what would have happened if they went through with the lawsuit.

Also, I wonder what exactly the lawsuit claimed.  The article just says the lawsuit was because their product didn’t contain only “natural” ingredients.  Isn’t pretty much every ingredient both “natural” and non-natural?

[OldPerry]

I’ll make this one stay at the top.

[OldPerry]

As to whether you should make your own surfactant or not.

If you want to make cosmetics (personal care products), you should buy your surfactants already made.  Focus your efforts on creating the best formulation you can.

If you want to make surfactants to sell to people who are going to use them for other purposes then you should make surfactants.

Unless you have no access to a surfactant supplier I see very little reason for any formulator to make their own surfactants. 

[OldPerry]

“Large bubbles” is still not specific enough.  Do you mean large bubbles like the ones made by a kids bubble making toy?  Do you want foam like a shaving cream foam?  Is Pantene shampoo foam your target?  

In reality, you wouldn’t make a formula with a single ingredient so asking what is the best ingredient for foaming doesn’t exactly make sense.  You probably want to know what is the best system for foaming.  Typically, this will require water, a primary surfactant and a secondary surfactant.

For example, the best foaming system I’ve ever tested was made with Water, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Laureth Sulfate and Cocamidopropyl Betaine.

[OldPerry]

Number 1 - If you are asking for help about a formula - Include the formula! You can not get a good answer to any formulation questions if we don’t know everything that is in your formula. If you can provide the entire formula with amounts of ingredients that is ideal. But at the very least, please list all the ingredients that are in your formula. If you don’t want to list this information, then you won’t get good answers.

Number 2 - Don’t ask for formulas. This forum was not created to give away formulas. Some chemists make a living out of coming up with formulas so if you need a formula, you can hire a formulator. 

But if you want a free starting formula I’ve put together a list with all the sources I know that have free starting formulas. Just go to the “Resources” section and click on the “Where to find free formulas” discussion.  These formulas are a good place to get you started. When you run into problems after doing some experiments, then post your question to this forum for help.

Number 3 - Don’t ask questions that you could have just typed in Google to find an answer. So if you have a problem, first search the web, look in books to find answers. When you get stumped, then post your question on this forum. While some members on the forum do not mind answering basic questions, there are many who get annoyed and may respond with snarky comments. 

Number 4 - Use INCI names when talking about ingredients. If you’re working with an ingredient and only know the trade name please go the extra step of putting the name in Google and finding out what the official INCI name is. It just makes it easier for people to know exactly what you are talking about. Often you will be asked to clarify if you haven’t provided this information.

Number 5 - Don’t just be a “taker.”  At the moment, no one is getting paid to participate in this forum. People are here discussing things and answering questions because they want to help others. Asking questions is fine but remember to respond to other people’s questions if you have something to add. So don’t just take advice. If you can, be sure to give advice too.  Also, show gratitude to people who take time to address your question. You might not like the answer but everyone here is doing their best to help.

Also related to the “taker” issue. If you have asked a question and gotten some responses, please update your discussion when you’ve seen the results of action taken. It is extremely helpful for people in the future who might be facing the sam e problem you have and can learn from it.

Number 6 - Tell us where you’re located. If you are looking for a chemical supplier be sure to tell us where you are located in the world. Most of the people on this forum are located in the US but over 40% of people are located outside the US. We can’t be of much help if you don’t share this information.

Number 7 - Don’t ask questions privately unless you want to hire the person you are contacting. The whole point of this community is to share our questions and answers.

Number 8 - Don’t hijack other people’s discussion. If you have a new question even if it is related to a previous discussion just start a new discussion.

Expected behavior

I previously mentioned snarky comments so this is a good time to address expected behavior.  While I don’t mind a little snark, this is meant to be a friendly, welcoming place so insults and abusive comments are strictly forbidden. I believe in free speech and for the most part won’t edit your responses. But if something strikes me as abusive or inappropriate I have no problem removing posts. And if there are numerous complaints about a member’s behavior or you are spamming the site, you will be removed. Fortunately, that has only happened a couple of times over the years.

If you have a problem with a post that you think is spam or abusive, click the “Flag” link on the discussion. I will be alerted and then can decide what to do.

But also, give people the benefit of the doubt. Text is not always an efficient way to communicate exactly what you want to say so something may come off as rude when it wasn’t meant to be. Do your best to view all comments in a friendly light. And develop a thick skin. No one is trying to make anyone else look stupid, feel bad or become embarrassed. Ask for clarification of what has been said before you get upset and start throwing out insults.  

Remember we have people on this forum with a wide range of experience and backgrounds. We also have people to whom English is not a primary language. Please have patience in your responses. If a discussion annoys you, feel free to ignore it.

Additionally, this is meant to be a place to discuss formulating products, science and the cosmetic industry. This isn’t the place to talk about politics or religion or even your favorite sports team. Of course, I understand that sometimes we all have other things we want to discuss so if you want to talk about some other subject please use the “Off Topic” category or go post on Facebook or Twitter. 

[OldPerry]

I’ve not seen any evidence that most consumers know that there is a difference between “organic” and “natural” cosmetics.  So, go the natural route, it’s much easier to produce products.  Aveeno calls itself natural and is purely a greenwashing effort.

[OldPerry]

Experimenting is the key.  You could try using more surfactant, less menthol, less fragrance.  Add a thickener.  Lots you can do but you have to experiment.

[OldPerry]

And you can get a lot out of our formulating course which features hair care.  https://chemistscorner.com/members

[OldPerry]

Unfortunately, “natural” preservatives are lacking in the industry.  It’s one of the biggest challenges for people trying to formulate naturally.

[OldPerry]

I doubt anyone could tell much difference in terms of skin / hair conditioning between Cetyl, Stearyl or Cetearyl

[OldPerry]

Yeah, 0.3% DMDM Hydantoin is plenty.  We used 0.2% as the only preservative for the shampoo I used to work on (VO5).  Our stability was good for over a year.

[OldPerry]

The main difference would be in your product stability.  Cetyl has a lower melting point so it can melt at higher temperatures.  Stearyl Alcohol has a slightly higher melting point and Behenyl Alcohol even higher still.  But most conditioner formulas use a blend of Cetyl and Stearyl Aclohol.  Behenyl alcohol is likely more expensive and doesn’t provide much additional benefit.

[OldPerry]

I agree with @galina.  You need a higher melting point wax to get better heat stability.  You could also reduce the level of peppermint oil.

[OldPerry]

I would guess they are using about 5% glycerin based on the ingredient list.  Cetyl Alcohol maybe 4%, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride 3.5%, Stearyl Alcohol 3.5%, Cetearyl Alcohol 3% and the Guar maybe 1% (at most)

I’m skeptical that the glycerin would have much conditioning effect.  It is water soluble and should just rinse away with the rinse water.  But maybe some of it stays behind.

[OldPerry]

I suppose cleanliness of the testing lab could have an impact.  Maybe they use different organisms?

It’s a good question.

[OldPerry]

Simple is a relative term as things like Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Chlorophyllin-Coper Complex, and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride don’t seem very simple to me.  But having said that there is a polyquaternium in the formula.  Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride is a polyquaternium.  This in addition to the Glycerin & Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride would be responsible for the conditioning effect.  

It’s also difficult to guess because the term “high conditioning” isn’t specifically defined.  Any conditioner with enough oils in it that don’t rinse out will make the hair easier to comb and detangle compared to no treatment.  You’d have to compare this formula to say Pantene on a blinded basis to see whether one is really more high conditioning than another.

Incidentally, if we strip away all the “fluff” ingredients here are the ones that are likely having an effect on conditioning…

INGREDIENTS: Aqua (Purified Water), Glycerin, Cetyl Alcohol, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Stearyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride…

[OldPerry]

@MarkBroussard - thanks for the link.  It appears I’m mistaken.  HA does seem to penetrate the skin (at least when applied directly to the skin in a 1.3% solution).

Now, does it penetrate the skin when surrounded by emulsifiers, emollients, humectants and occlusives found in most skin lotions?

And what effect does the direct application have on skin?

[OldPerry]

BASF is a big company!

[OldPerry]

@braveheart - I’ll see if I can find a way to do that.

[OldPerry]

@braveheart - I can only see the abstracts of these but the first study had the whole study.  Here’s what I think.

1.  The first & second studies were done on cell culture lines (as far as I can tell)  The tell us nothing about whether the  molecule penetrates the skin or not.

2.  The third study demonstrates the HA is a moisturizer.  They don’t compare it to other moisturizers that are superior.

3.  I can’t tell from the fourth study whether HA penetrated to the dermis just (according to them) deeper into the epidermis.  

So, I’m still looking for data demonstrating the HA penetrates to the Dermis

[OldPerry]

Hello Vida - This would probably work better as a new discussion so you can get input from more chemists.  Just click the “New Discussion” button at the top right and start a new discussion.

I don’t know which supplier is producing the plant derived versions of those ingredients off the top of my mind.  

[OldPerry]

It is interesting that the article extensively quotes the coroner as their expert.  Shouldn’t they have talked to a cosmetic industry person?

[OldPerry]

Hello Vida - These would probably be Tier 3 but depending on the formula Tier 4.  

However, Behentrimonium Chloride and Stearamdioprpoyl Dimethylamine do not necessarily have to be petroleum based ingredients.  They can be made from plant starting materials.

The Cocoyl Taurate and Rice Quat would really depend on the standard that you are following.  They would not qualify under COSMOS standards but I think they would under the NSF standards.  

I’m not familiar with any concerns about the ingredients.  Only that they can not be produced “naturally” so some certification groups don’t consider them natural.

[OldPerry]

Well, you could try selling a pearled shampoo.

Have you tried any of the Celluloses or Xanthan gum?  Can you provide an ingredient list?