OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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@MarkBroussard - I agree with most of what you’ve said.
We might disagree a bit on what consumers understand by the term “natural”. For example, I don’t think consumers know anything about Sulfation or the French Process. The COSMOS standard allows both of these synthetic reactions for their “natural” standard.
Consumers are consistently mislead or lied to by numerous natural cosmetic companies. For example, we’ve got brands like this one http://www.tataharperskincare.com/ who blatantly misleads consumers.
“100% natural and nontoxic skincare, cosmetics, and aromatherapy. We’ll never use synthetic chemicals and everything we make is formulated and manufactured by us at our farm in Vermont.”
Do you think consumers believe that when they say “we’ll never use synthetic chemicals…” what they really mean is “we’ll never use synthetic chemicals except for the synthetic chemicals allowed by whatever natural standard we are following”?
It would be interesting to see a lawsuit against a natural company that follows the NPA standards and claims they don’t use synthetic chemicals.
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Since there are a lot of chemists here, let’s be clear that most of the ingredients on the NPA approved “natural” list are also synthetic.
For example, Cetyl Alcohol does not exist in nature. It can only be synthetically produced.
It is also illegal in the US to sell any Zinc Oxide that is mined naturally. It has to be synthetically produced. From the FDA Code of Federal Regulations…
§73.1991 Zinc oxide.
(a) Identity. (1) The color additive zinc oxide is a white or yellow-white amorphous powder manufactured by the French process (described as the indirect process whereby zinc metal isolated from the zinc-containing ore is vaporized and then oxidized). It is principally composed of Zn.
While the shampoo formula posted has synthetic ingredients so do a lot of formulas approved under the NPA standard.Cosmetics are not natural. Calling some natural and others synthetic is a marketing ploy.
We should really come up with different words to describe the difference between what people consider “natural” and what people don’t consider natural.
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Money goes into developing these types of ingredients because customers (cosmetic manufacturers) are asking for “natural” preservatives. Bio Botanica and Ashland know they can sell more Propanediol or Phenylpropanol if they throw in some Hops.
This also gives them something new to promote. Raw material suppliers are under the same pressure to come up with new products as cosmetic manufacturers.
@Derya - Yes, when I worked at a corporation R&D was involved in the product development process the whole way including the beginning “ideation” phase. In fact, I participated in many market research studies & focus groups.
But most product ideas came from what our marketing people saw was being successful in the marketplace. Right now Argan oil is a hot ingredient that everyone wants to use because it is one of the top sellers on Amazon & consumers know it. There is nothing special about the ingredient except that other people successfully sell products with it in there.
Cosmetic marketing is much less about actual performance than it is about a compelling story. You can’t convince people to buy from you by telling them your moisturizer uses Petrolatum or Mineral Oil. Everyone uses those! And the reason is because they work the best. But people don’t buy product because of performance….they buy because of the stories.
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That’s a good question. I don’t think there is a specific beauty product marketing strategy book.
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Would a new company really waste cash and put in a raw material in their product that is relatively unknown in the marketplace for marketing hype?
Yes, they would. In fact, it happens all the time. Argan Oil? Morroccan oil? Panthenol, Micellar water…the list goes on.
In fact, if you were a good marketer you would specifically look for an ingredient that isn’t popular in the marketplace for launching your own line. That way you can be first-to-market and get the advantage if it happens to become popular. If you launch with Echinacea and are the 10th, 11th or x number brand that has it, you won’t be different. Companies that launch with already popular ingredients use a “fast follower” marketing strategy where they try to make quick sales usually at lower prices.
The reality is that none of these ingredients have much impact on the performance of the product. They are just marketing gimmicks. Hops is a gimmick. There is nothing special about it beyond it’s story. Any chemical benefit you can get from hops can be achieved in a superior way using an alternative (probably synthetic) compound.
I’m sure MooGoo makes fine products. But hops is not the reason.
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I don’t think you will notice much difference whether you leave the silicones out of the first treatment or not. Your approach is logical but that doesn’t mean it will be true.
The penetration of the oil in the hair shaft may be relatively quick such that the heat doesn’t have much affect. The silicone may also have no affect on the penetration of oil into the hair. Or it might.
I doubt very much that you will notice any measurable difference whether you have silicones in your formula or not. You will certainly notice a difference if silicones are never used during the entire procedure.
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A body scrub and a lotion are not the same product so you probably need different ingredients. The ingredients you need will depend on the type of body scrub you want to make. Do you want to make a body wash scrub? Or do you want an oil-based exfoliating scrub? Or is there something else.
Scrubs are meant to clean the skin so they necessarily have to be removed. Lotions are meant to moisturize the skin so they are left on.
@sven - There are some formulas here. https://chemistscorner.com/cosmetic-formulation-basics/ Other formulas are presented in our courses.
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There’s logic if you use an oil that penetrates the hair. Coconut oil is the one that has been demonstrated to do it best.
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@luiscuevasii - wouldn’t they also complain about Sodium Benzoate? (it’s also a salt)
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I agree. It’s a solvent for one of the feature ingredients.
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Nothing is going to be cheaper or healthier than salt.
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Yes, you can use Polyquat 7 if you don’t want to heat the batch. Although, I always think some heating is a good idea to make things mix together better.
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@SheilaInBoston - It is actually illegal to add non-color additives to a cosmetic to provide color. The only legal colors are the color additives approved by the FDA. There is a similar list of colorants allowed in the EU.
The reason cosmetics even began to be regulated was because of colorants. People were using materials to provide colors that were causing injuries like blindness.
I do not recommend using non-approved materials as colorants.
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Dr Axe is not science based. He has the trappings of science but the information he passes along has not been rigorously tested (verified) and some of it has been proven to be false. If you are interested in serious science, he is not worth following. He is a misinformation peddler.
As far as ionic water goes, @Belassi is correct, all water is ionic. When it’s called out in cosmetic marketing, it is just science-sounding, words that are meant to impress consumers who are uneducated about science. There is nothing significantly different about Estee Lauder water or anyone else’s.
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No need to think much about whether you have ionic water or not. You won’t notice any difference when combined with functional ingredients in your formula.
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Hello @emily.flemer - I appreciate your participation in the forum but all your responses come off as adverts for your services. Could you at least provide some useful answer before advertising? For example, can you answer the question posted above?
How can (a client) know that a particular lab or chemist is good? Why should they work with your company?
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Hello - Since this is primarily a cosmetic formulating forum, it’s possible that no one else here has formulated an anti-hemorrhoid cream. I know I have never worked on one. In the US, these are over-the-counter drugs.
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Welcome to all the new members!
I’d suggest you start a new discussion with a question you might have. Just click the “New Discussion” button located on the right column under the blue button.
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Good news! I figured out how to add an icon that you can see so you can bookmark discussions!
Just click the star icon in the right hand corner of any discussion.
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When you say “long lasting” what do you mean? Long lasting compared to what? How long do you want the room spray to last?
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The question of whether you have to add preservatives or not depends on what your microbial testing tells you. In general, there is a low probability of growth in an anhydrous product. That is why some companies don’t add it. The stability from a microbial standpoint could be years.
However, there isn’t a no-probability of growth. Consumers can get moisture on a product and microbes could grow at the interface. Or your product could get contaminated during production.
For these reasons it makes sense to add a preservative even to anhydrous formulas. And the other thing to consider from a scientific standpoint, is that there are zero negative effects of including a preservative “just in case.”
The only reason for avoiding preservatives is to support a fear marketing campaign. Unfortunately, many consumers buy into this fear so I understand why companies do it.
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Argan oil in shampoo does two things…it reduces the cleansing ability of the product and reduces the foam.
Neither of these are good from a performance standpoint. It is good for marketing though.
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Hello Sven - You can’t see it but on the top right corner any discussion is a gear icon and next to that is an invisible star. Click on this invisible star and you can bookmark any discussion. Then you can get to those discussions by clicking on the right side “My Bookmarks”.
I’ll try to make the invisible star something you can see.
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Perhaps they didn’t label all their ingredients.
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No, evaporating the alcohol from the extract is not required, nor something you should do. The tiny amount of alcohol you get from the extract will not have any noticeable impact of the performance of the formula.