[OldPerry]

Yes, 7 surfactants is overkill

[OldPerry]

@khoikhoa - if you are serious about learning about formulating and cosmetic science, you should immediately stop listening to toxicology advise from authors who have no science background. The article you linked is filled with false and misleading information.

As @ozgirl said.  You can learn more at

http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient/petrolatum-0

[OldPerry]

I would disperse the PVP, starch and acrylates in room temperature water. Then heat up the water phase.

Also, a stick blender is not a proper mixer for making professional level products. It’s fine for a hobby but then you’ll get stuff like air in your batch. Unless you’re going to change your mixing equipment, you’ll have to deal with air in your batch.

To figure out what you need to adjust to give more hold, make it less watery, etc. you would be best served by doing a knockout experiment. Then you can see which ingredients have the most impact on those features you want to adjust. Then increase or decrease an ingredient until you get the performance you want.

It’s rare that there is some simple advice / ingredient that someone could tell you and it would fix a formula.  You have to experiment.

[OldPerry]

@khoikhoa - what makes you say petrolatum is not safe for a baby?

[OldPerry]

The Honest company has been demonstrated to be dishonest so I wouldn’t put a lot of faith in the accuracy of their LOI.  But if we assume in this case they are being honest, there are no oils in the formula that would require emulsification. All their ingredients are likely water soluble. In your formula, the essential oils require some type of emulsification.

[OldPerry]

Oh my!  GFE? I’m sure Luecidal can be effective in some systems since Active Micro Technologies probably sells to some larger clients. But I sure wouldn’t trust it. 

PS.  Welcome back! It’s great to have your contributions again.  

[OldPerry]

I’m skeptical of the effectiveness of Leucidal.

https://cen.acs.org/articles/92/i23/Close-Scrutiny-Cosmetic-Preservatives-Continues.html

@lucy - have you tried it out? What type of system was it used in?

[OldPerry]

If you want help you need to give us a list of ingredients and ideally how much you’re using.  Without that information there isn’t much help that can be given.

[OldPerry]

Fragrance can also reduce viscosity.
Adjusting pH may also be used to reduce viscosity

[OldPerry]

The FDA does not approve blushes or any cosmetic for that matter.

Yes, you could use phenoxyethanol in that system. Whether it works or not is a different story.

[OldPerry]

It’s tough to give any advice unless you provide a definition of what you consider “natural”. 

[OldPerry]

I’m curious, how is saponification considered a natural chemical reaction?
It doesn’t occur in nature except when people create the conditions for it to happen. How is this different than any other synthetic chemical reaction?

[OldPerry]

@amalgbr - You don’t actually need to learn to make your products if you want to launch a line. There are lots of people who don’t know how to make cosmetics that created their own line. For example, none of the celebrity lines are made by people who created their own products. Marketing really is the more important skill if starting a line is your desired outcome.

[OldPerry]

And she sincerely believes that all the additives they use work.  Whether they do or not, well, the science is far from settled.

[OldPerry]

Those tests are for people who are doing a hobby. I wouldn’t rely on them to provide evidence that your products are safe for sale to the public.

[OldPerry]

Interesting discussion. 

[OldPerry]

Sorry for my delayed response. I’m in Australia at the moment and haven’t been able to keep up with my regular activities.

To your questions…

• the elimination of pick-and-pack (deaggregation of unitized products)?  YES - I didn’t feeling like boxing things up and going to the post office.
• the outsourcing of a ‘storage’ warehouse space? - YES - I don’t have an environmentally controlled space for product.
• the benefits of scale, respective to pricing on customer-bound transportation?  This doesn’t really apply to my project.
• the constancy of pricing with respect to outbound transportation (you to amazon)?  Not really a consideration.
• the platform analytics (on transportation and sales) - I don’t love the data that Amazon gives. It’s hard to figure out costs.
• the customer relations management (reverse logistics) - I hate this aspect of using Amazon.
• Others?  The biggest benefit to using Amazon was that they took care of all the packing, shipping, and tracking of orders.

Returns have not been an issue for me.

The biggest problem with Amazon is the cost for what you get. They charge for shipping, storage, sales commissions, etc. 

[OldPerry]

I’m not sure but using that much in a lotion could be in violation of VOC regulations in California.

[OldPerry]

I used Amazon FBA.

[OldPerry]

That depends on what you want the oil or extract to do.
Why are you using the ingredient?

In most cases, extracts have no measurable effect.
Oils can have an emollient effect or an odor effect or no effect at all.

[OldPerry]

No.  A non-ionic surfactant will not neutralize an ionic surfactant.

A cationic surfactant may neutralize an anionic surfactant but these are both ionic surfactants.

[OldPerry]

Yes, replacing the Behenate with the Tribehenin could help improve stability because it will get you closer to the required HLB. You need to recalculate your emulsion HLB.

[OldPerry]

Ideally, you would like to have emulsifiers that are close in HLB value to your oil phase. So, if your oil phase requires an HLB of 7, a system of two emulsifiers with 8 & 6 is better than one of 12 & 2. 

But I think you’re missing something. If you already have Stearyl Behenate in your formula, that should be included in your emulsifier calculation.

Also, Cetyl Alcohol and Stearyl Alcohol are co-emulsifiers. Since they have such a high number they aren’t really primary emulsifiers in most cases. 

If you just start with your oil phase. You need an emulsifer for an oil system of HLB = 10.7

So, a good place to start would be an emulsifier system with an HLB 9 and one with HLB 11. 

PEG-7 Olivate HLB = 11
PEG-40 Sorbitan Peroleate HLB = 9  

But you can still experiment with different ratios of the emulsifiers you are using. When it comes down to it, you have to experiment with what is going to be stable. The HLB system gives you a starting point.

[OldPerry]

“How do does calculating differ when you have four emulsifiers?“

This is a percentage equation.
w = emulsifier 1 HLB
x = emulsifier 2 HLB
y = emulsifier 3 HLB
z = emulsifier 4 HLB

W% + X% + Y% + Z% = 100% 

I won’t look up the exact emulsifier values but here is how you would do it.  Suppose you have the following emulsifier values

w = 6, x = 8, y = 11, z = 14

We’ll go with your emulsion percentages

W% = 31.7622 
X% = 31.7622
Y% = 28.6885
Z% = 7.7868

HLB = w*W% + x*X% + y*Y% + z*Z%
HLB = (1.91) + (2.54) + (3.16) + (1.09) = 8.7

Now, suppose you change the emulsion percentages

W% = 50 
X% = 30
Y% = 15
Z% = 5

The new HLB value of your emulsion is…

HLB = 6*0.5 + 8*0.3 + 11*0.15 + 14*0.05 = 7.75

Hope that makes sense.

[OldPerry]

What @Doreen said.  List all the ingredients or you won’t get much help.