[Paprik]

@Graillotion, good point! yeah I wasn’t really sure about the SE either
That is why I didn’t write it, but you could be right with Glyceryl Stearate SE! In both cases, it would be high HLB anionic emulsifier. 

Anyhow, looks like @geepee has solved it?  

PS. you should always evaluate your samples the next day. Or even 2 days after. Something like Polawax GP200 takes couple days to fully thicken. 

Good stuff, happy formulating!  

[Paprik]

If I am not mistaken Glyceryl Stearate Citrate is anionic high HLB emulsifier - O/W. 
But it looks like you are trying to formulate W/O emulsion [Sorbitan Olivate, High lipid input, Lower water, zinc balms are usually W/O] …. Or if you are not trying to formulate W/O you should consider it (?)

Or add high HLB non-ionic emulsifier with little less Sorbitan Olivate. 

I think it only holds together when cooled down due to the waxy material that solidify. But there is not enough high HLB emulsifier to hold all that lipid. 

- Rheology modifier (gum, polymer) is also good for stability. For example XG for O/W or Polyamide-3 for W/O. 
-Accelerated stability testing is a double-edged sword. As you mentioned, in RT it is ok. Sometimes things that are happening in the over won’t happen in real life. But it is a good indicator. Freeze/thaw is also very good - go for 6 cycles. 

Hope this helps a little bit, hopefully someone will have another idea what is going on  

[Paprik]

I am not an expert on this, but over-preserving is also not great. 

I imagine as it is killing living organism and there’s a lot of “excess” of preservative, it can potentially interfere with your skin microbiome? [Leave on product]

[Paprik]

As mentioned, it is a good practice/idea to add a little bit (around 1-2%) of low HLB emulsifier. It will build up viscosity, lower the overall HLB (can help with soaping effect) and improve stability. 

Just make sure you have enough high HLB emulsifier and test stability - 6 cycles of freeze/thaw. 

[Paprik]

Whoops, sorry about the Alpha-Bisabolol. 

The typical input is up to 0.5%. Although there is no upper limit in EU/NZ/AUS, I believe USA guys were saying that over 0.5% it’s being considered OTC (?).
I usually stick to 0.2 - 0.3% in daily product and 0.5% if it’s something like acid peel or a soothing product).

You will need to heat your formula a bit to dissolve the Allantoin. 
[Lot of ppl have problems with Allantoin precipitate in the formula though.
Not sure how to deal with that as I never had this issue.] 

[Paprik]

Just because fungi like more acidic environment, that doesn’t mean that opportunistic ones won’t thrive in more neutral environment. 
Same for bacteria - recent recall of products of pH 10 (if I remember correctly).

Same as for water - for example - Jar of jam. Sitting in your fridge, full of sugar, little to no available water, but every now and then a mold appears. 
So if you dip into the product with wet hands, you introduce a little bit of water, exposure to air, … Over time the build up can cause a problem. 

You need to protect the product in the jar, not diluted product on your body/in the shower during use. 

[Paprik]

The way glycerin works as preservative (I hate saying that like this) is that it lowers available water in the product.
So if used in high inputs (40%) it can “hold” all the available water so there is not enough for microorganism. 

The “need” of antifungal is because fungi do not require that much water to grow compared to bacteria. 

[Paprik]

You need to understand your emulsifiers - 
Glycerol Monostearate - low HLB
Ceteareth-20 - high HLB 

Let’s say you use 10% lipids, 3% Ceteareth-20 and 0.5% GMS, you’d end up with O/W emulsion. If you would use more lipid (or lot more GMS) it would probably separate. 

If you would use 75% lipids, 3% GMS and 0.5% Ceteareth-20 you will end up with W/O emulsion. 

In other words, you need enough high HLB emulsifier to hold your lipid portion in O/W and low HLB emulsifier to hold you water portion in W/O emulsion. 

Hope you got the idea?  

[Paprik]

Hi, I am happy to share snaps of my study text - 

Just a note, Dry hair is a condition in my opinion, not a type of hair. 
It’s possibly damaged and needs to be repaired - proteins, polyquats, etc … 

Hope this helps a bit  

[Paprik]

@Graillotion  
Give him at least a hint ! Is it a general colour? 

[Paprik]

@robert as @ketchito said, it can be a problem with your emulsifying system (general problem) and it would be better if you write down the/your formula. 

[Paprik]

The good thing about Guar HPTCh is that you don’t need to slurry it. It goes straight into water. And you don’t neutralize it, you acidify it (you bring the pH down). 

I am using it so far only in conditioner, but yes, I would add that after all water-containing ingredients. 
So it hydrates with all water available. Otherwise it will swell only with some water and if you would add another water-containing ingredient it would not get “grabbed” by the gum as it is already hydrated. And that could result in separation. 

I hope it makes sense?  Maybe someone will correct me. .

UPDATE:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0026/8317/5001/files/TIB_VC-993_N-hance_3215.pdf?v=1606338576

Hmmm .. I checked that ingredient on LotionCrafter and here’s how they recommend to use it - 

* temperature/mixing conditions o cold processable, but tolerant of hot processing
* add the polymer to the vortex of well-agitated water until dispersed. o continue mixing and adjust pH to ~5.5 and continue mixing until particles dissolved
* add surfactants in order of ionic character, beginning with non-ionics, amphoterics then anionics to avoid incompatibility. Add the remaining formula ingredients, adjusting pH and viscosity if necessary.

[Paprik]

@GeorgeBenson .. oh I see .. thanks for sharing. I actually always dissolved SCI in Cocamidopropyl Betaine. But I haven’t done a lot of stability tests. 
However I love SCI and the idea to have it in facial cleanser or so … So will definitely try it  

Regarding the guar gum, is it Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride? I had never issues with it It went always straight to the water and after acidifying it a bit it hydrated and no problem. 
When are you adding it? If you add that before last ingredient containing water it might separate as the additional water might not be “used” by the gum? 
(I also always use medium shear - sawtooth disc stirrer).

Hope this could help a bit? Good luck and happy formulating. 

[Paprik]

GeorgeBenson said:

I dont know anything about shampoo bars but in my liquid shampoo i heat water to 70 or 75 then add sci, mix a for a couple minutes and its nice and dissolved. But if you leave it out to cool for too long after that point it will start to become solid again. 

Hey mate, what do you mean by “but if you leave it out to cool for too long after that point it will start to become solid again” ? 

Do you mean like you need to proceed with the formulating or ? … 

Why am I asking - It happened to me that it precipitated … 

Thank you!

[Paprik]

See @perry , I would already give a LIKE  
Same to @Graillotion , hehe

[Paprik]

I believe Allantoin tolerates low ph. You can stick with that.
Quick google search shows pH stability 3 - 8.

Also, I am using Allantoin in my Glycolic acid HA gel peel. So it MUST be correct  

Another one could be Alpha-Bisabolol.
Also shows to be stable between 3 - 11. 

[Paprik]

What natural waxes are you using? We could help more if you share your formula. 

High HLB emulsifier. This will help to wash it off. 

[Paprik]

This looks like instability.
We would need to know what else is in the formula.
Something might be breaking down/reacting and raising the pH. 

[Paprik]

What kind of sunscreens are you talking about? 

Zinc Oxide will kind of self-regulate its pH to around 6.5 - 7.5.

[Paprik]

@Perry nooo you’re not predictable at all.
It’s just I remember someone asked that before in here and I remember your answer. Was very similar. 

I am currently looking into formulating purple shampoo

[Paprik]

Hehe, I was waiting for you @perry I knew exactly you’re going to say that. 

[Paprik]

I really like Sclerotium gum and Carbomer. 

[Paprik]

I didn’t say Kaolin will not be stable in w/o emulsion. 
But you are using low HLB emulsifier in o/w emulsion. 

But for the record, it would require very stable emulsion to keep Kaolin dispersed, plus it is hard to preserve.

Anyhow, I shared my opinion, hope this helped.
Happy formulating. 

[Paprik]

@Fekher 

I am sorry, I really do not want to let you down, but if you do not understand concept of O/W ; W/O and HLB, you should really focus on more basic stuff.

It looks like you are mixing a lot of things without knowing the chemistry and principles. Try to focus on creating O/W emulsions (creams - anionic or nonionic), get knowledge about emulsifiers and their properties, oils/lipids, easy to incorporate actives, stabilizers,  types of emulsions etc…
After that you can move on onto something more complicated. 

I would recommend taking @perry ‘s course. He will teach you everything you need to know to start a proper formulation journey.  

I mean this as a motivation, not to disappoint you. Hope you understand.

[Paprik]

@Fekher

I bet you are aiming to create O/W emulsion, but you are using LOW HLB emulsifier that creates W/O. That obviously destabilizes your formula.
Other non-ionic HIGH HLB emulsifier should be your choice - or something like Cetearyl Alcohol. 

Carbomer (if you’re using 940 or 980) is very sensitive material. Any sign of electrolyte and it’s gone. You are not mixing only non-ionic with cationic, but anionic and cationic. Those have charges, they are ionic. 

Why the guys are asking about the temperature, filling and condensation - If you fill the product warm/hot and close it off some water will evaporate and condensate on the lid [This is basically unpreserved water]. You need to make sure you pack the product at room temperature - preferable the next day. Or do not cover the product - or use some mesh cover or paper cover. 
Or it is packaging problem and you need to check if it seals properly. 

And what preservative are you using? 
As you should be formulating in slightly acidic pH, the carbomer (940;980) is pointless.