[Paprik]

@Dtdang, hehe, thank you. And guess what, I am one of those worse ones There are much better chemists in here, which is great  

I have a long way to go! Happy studying and formulating

[Paprik]

Carbomer is electrolyte sensitive. And needs pH around 6.0 - 6.5. Even if you create a nice clear thick gel, once you introduce the acids, it will turn water thin. Sepimax Zen could hold some acid load.

XG actually needs slightly acidic environment to swell properly. Therefore is suitable for that. 
Succinoglycan gum is also great for acid/electrolytes rich environment. 

Small molecular weights HA won’t gel. The higher MW, the better gelling properties. Over a million kDa would be preferable. 

One thing to point out - Acid peels require low pH. Usually 3 - 3.5. That would not be compatible with your MAP as it requires more neutral pH -  6.0 - 7.0.

Share maybe your whole formula, so we can take a look and help you. 

[Paprik]

Can you be more specific with the trouble you get?

If you’re looking for how to thicken your product, than Carbomer would be useless anyway. There are also some great grades of XG, it might be worth it exploring those options.

You can try to use high molecular hyaluronic acid to gel your product. 

[Paprik]

How are you mixing? 
When mixing small batches, it’s usually hard to prevent foaming. 
If you will use low shear, it should keep it relatively “calm”. However, if you get foam, it should go away by the next day. 

A few questions. I don’t see any preservative? I guess you have one and just did not listed? 
Why so much glycerin? 38% That is whipping lot. (But I saw this in one formula - was checking some suppliers now. Was for cream-type face wash. However I don’t think it’s necessary. )

[Paprik]

And glycerin, possibly Dimethicone (higher cps), urea

[Paprik]

It is surprising how Zahra “knows” everything,. agrees on everything and has done everything you guys tell her before, but she (I assume it is her) still has things to say and having issues.

If you read all the books, have degree in chemistry, have done countless experiments, know everything about the ingredients,  … what seems to be the issue? I’m re-reading everything and I still do not get your point. 

I don’t mean to be rude, but this is second topic (I think) from her and it looks just ridiculous. Like she is making fun of you guys. 

[Paprik]

Nice! Thanks for sharing mate

[Paprik]

@Perry & @Graillotion, thank you guys.  

[Paprik]

Thank you guys!! Really appreciated the feedback and tips. 

I have ordered new silica gel packets (with indication - how fancy aye?) and will chuck a few of those together with Carbomer into smaller zip lock baggies. 

[Paprik]

I had two silica gel packets there and it still went bad. 
But maybe those silica gel packets were old already. I will need to get some new ones and test it out. 
Thanks tho  

[Paprik]

sean9980 said:

Paprik said:

Also, Phenoxyethanol as a solo preservative is not enough. 

Use Liquid Germall plus, 0.5%, goes straight into water and had never issues. 

You could use euxyl pe 9010

Euxyl PE9010 is 90% Phenoxyethanol, therefore using this won’t solve the original issue. 

[Paprik]

Also, Phenoxyethanol as a solo preservative is not enough. 

Use Liquid Germall plus, 0.5%, goes straight into water and had never issues. 

[Paprik]

Unfortunately you do not calculate it. 
It involves using a moisture-sensing device to measure the relative humidity above the product surface in a finished product container. 

However, if your water is less than 5%, you should be usually safe. 
In this case, the sugar probably takes most of the free water. 

(Imagine a bottle of jam. I don’t think they are preserved usually, unless it’s not the true fruit-sugar jam. The available water in those products is usually around 0.6. So you do not get usually any microbial growth, but sometimes, an opportunistic organism tries it and you might get mold or similar)

[Paprik]

Unfortunately we cannot give you proper answer for this. Only PET would. 

Looking at the composition, it looks like your available water would be really low. Thanks to the sugar. 

So options - you might not need preservative at all (if available water <0.6), … 0.5% should be enough … or you can use maximum recommended input 1%.

As it is a wash off product and there is a chance that it will get in touch with additional water (when dipping fingers in or humidity in the bathroom or similar) I don’t see any a problem with using 1%. 

[Paprik]

@Abdullah, hmmm, as it was cationic system, I’m afraid I won’t be able to help. Usually chelating agent helps with this issue. 
Did you have enough antioxidant in the formula? 

[Paprik]

Yeah, first coming on my mind is microbial contamination. 
Also acid environment can turn emulsion pink sometimes. 

And also, sodium hydroxymethylglycinate can turn formulas pink in the presence of iron. 

[Paprik]

Unclesid said:

@Paprik, it is a product that is being sold now however their manufacturer closed and left them w no formula only thing they had were LOI so we are in testing stages to match the benchmark. Thanks for info!

I see. Reverse Engineering can be quite fun, but also pain. 
Good luck with that. 
If you could share the LOI, someone could give you some tips  

[Paprik]

My first thoughts were : Are you trying to burn far or skin?  
Sorry, but the combination of Eucalyptus and Menthol in such a high inputs is … worrying me. Have you tried it? 

But to your problem. My coconut oil is really soft now, nearly liquid-y. We still have high temperatures here in NZ. As it’s majority of your product, that’s the problem. Add to that not that hard petrolatum and two liquid oils and there is no surprise it does not set into solid or balm consistency. 

Add some waxy material. That is how you build body into products. 

If you’re looking for something related with slimming or “Fat burning”, you really need to look for actives with IN VIVO efficacy data. 
E.g. Rhodysterol from SEPPIC. You can investigate that if interested. 

[Paprik]

@missmorganlang ; @GeorgeBenson .. thanks guys.
Will definitely try it. 

[Paprik]

@Abdullah, sorry mate, I do not answer for this.
I mostly use 350 at 1 - 2%. 
I bought the 10 fluid just for the feel, but haven’t really work with it yet. 

[Paprik]

@Abdullah, I have 350 and Dimethicone fluid, which is 10 cps. 

[Paprik]

Abdullah said:

@Paprik i mix dimethicone with oil phase, heat to 60-70°c and make the emulsion. 

Is it necessary to add dimethicone below 50°c? 

How do you add it? I mean when emulsion is made you reduce the temperature and add dimethicone, then do you homogenize again? 

I actually thought it should be in the oil phase too, but when I checked some suppliers data, they recommend add that below 50°C. So I do it. 

I usually add 1 - 2% only, so I add that with my heat sensitive ingredients in the cool down phase under low shear. 

[Paprik]

I add dimethicone under 50°C too. 
Don’t have any other explanation other than following suppliers recommendation.  

[Paprik]

@ketchito, yes I did. 
Yesterday I tried your method, adding HEC before anything else. I mixed til properly suspended and add a few drops of Sodium Hydroxide. To pH around 8 - 9. Waited until it cleared and thick gel formed (10 - 15 mins I think). Mix for couple more minutes and add my surfactant blend. Mixed til homogenous, mixed a bit more and adjusted the pH to 5.5 - 6.0. 

This morning (half an hour ago ) I went to my lab and … that damned separated layer was there.

I’m starting to think the HEC won’t be compatible with this load of surfactants maybe. I have Methocel, but wasn’t playing with it yet. Only ones and it didn’t go into the water easily like HEC, so I kind of gave up on it Guess big mistake. 

[Paprik]

Just a couple of thing to your formula. 

Iselux Mild -
Aqua (and) Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate (and) Cocamidopropyl Betaine (and) Sodium Methyl Oleoyl Taurate (and) Lauryl Glucoside (and) Coco-Glucoside

It has all surfactants. Not sure why adding more Cocamidopropyl Betaine?
Also, Isethionates and Taurates should thicken with salt present. Have you tried adding NaCl in 0.3 - 0.5% increments? Add after you adjust your pH to > 6. This may also help. 

Not sure how much of the ingredients are you using. Percentages are really useful for us. 

Totopherol acetate is pointless. It is not antioxidant for the essential oil, only for skin. However, in wash off products? No point. Change it for “normal” Tocopherol.