[Paprik]

Ok, this changes situation. You only said Guar gum. This is non-ionic gum.
Hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride is cationic guar derivative. And there’s a big difference. 
So, Hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride does not need to be slurried. It goes straight into the water. You only need to acidify the water so it hydrates. 
But, add that at the end. The gum should hydrate with all water available from the formula. As Decyl Glucoside is (usually) 50-52% active, the rest is water. CAPB is also 68-70% water .. I don’t think you add too much of it. 

So I think what happened is, you let the gum swell with some water and after you add some extra, which was not “grabbed” by the gum. If that makes sense. So that causes the separation. 

Regarding the oils, you need to solubilize them first. So you have to premix your lipids with solubilizer separately until homogenous and after slowly add to water phase in small increments and wait until water clears. 

Hope it makes sense? Let me know if not Good luck! 

[Paprik]

Why are you adding the guar gum anyway? 
Try it without, only with Crothix and see how it goes. 

I don’t see a problem if you really premix it well with glycerin and add that to a water and slightly acidify it. . And let it hydrate for some time. Unless it does something bad with the Crothix. 

Also, a note, reduce Panthenol input to 0.01%. It won’t have any benefits anyway and it is wasting your money. Your main humectant would be the glycerin. It is mainly a marketing ingredient and it will be washed away. 

One more note, I am not sure if you have enough solubilize for your lipids. Castor oil is hard to solubilize and you have also 0.5% of fragrance which is basically free and may cause stability issues. 

[Paprik]

Ok guys, let’s get this straight as I see some misinformation. 

If you are using an ingredient as a buffer, doesn’t matter if it’s Lactic acid, Sodium hydroxide and similar, the ingredient actually dissociate into its ions. For example, for sodium hydroxide it’s sodium ion (Na+) and hydroxyl ion (OH-). Therefore you do not get any “benefits/risks” from it. So if you are lowering pH with lactic acid, you will not have enough free (“full”) acid to work as an active ingredient. However it does look better in the label. 

Your original formula is basically slightly hydrating good smelling water. 
Not sure what is your marketing story, but I don’t think you will fulfill it and customer won’t be happy with the product as it won’t do anything. 

Glycerin can and will feel tacky, even at 5% especially if it’s the “only” ingredient in your product. Water will evaporate and leave only the glycerin. 
(it is a different story for emulsions)

My suggestion - 
Keep the water, hydrosol if happy and in budget allows, keep the glycerin at 1% and add some other non-tacky humectant (propanediol, propylene glycol, etc…), get some hero ingredient - can be Niacinamide as mentioned and if needed other ingredients for marketing at 0.01%.
Of course well preserve and as Abdullah mentioned, chelator would not harm it. 

Hope this helps, happy formulating. 

[Paprik]

The shear type is not defined by the speed. It is defined by the mixing head. You are definitely using high shear even under low speed. 

Yeah, @Graillotion, what do you think about the high shear?

I know that some of them are shear tolerant or resistant, some even require high shear (apparently haven’t found one yet), so I’m a bit skeptical about it. 

The first video has Tocopherol Acetate. That has no antioxidant benefits for the formula, only for skin. 

Anyway, good job, keep posting  

[Paprik]

I have a question too, what you guys think about Pemulen TR-2? 

[Paprik]

@emma1985, thanks Ema for the videos. Well done  
I am a bit worried about the high shear too. I don’t really think they are even high shear tolerant. I guess you do destroy some of that polymer during the mixing. Have you tried low shear only? And compared the two products? 
I think the main reason why it didn’t separate is due to the waxy emulsifier. 

Also, you are using quite a bit of butters and oils, but no antioxidant to protect them. 

But love the format of your videos  

[Paprik]

Happiest Birthday @Perry! Hope you had a blast  

[Paprik]

Lecithin

[Paprik]

evchem2 said:

@Paprik do you have any literature/ source on XG swelling better in acidic media? Haven’t heard that before, I would have expected since it is anionic that acidity would not help hydration

Hello, sorry, to make it clear. XG is usually better in pH<7. However, there are some grades that tolerates higher pH. That is why I said slightly acidic. 
XG is very forgiving. 
We have been taught this in my study with IPCS.

[Paprik]

Hello,

HA takes a while to hydrate, but you will get there. 
You can disperse it in water with preservative and leave it overnight.
Or I like to mix HA with glycerin/propylene glycol and add to water. This way you won’t have any clumps - same way as you would slurry natural gums to prevent fish eyes. 

Remember, HA is heat sensitive (do not heat) and shear sensitive. 

[Paprik]

@Dtdang, hehe, thank you. And guess what, I am one of those worse ones There are much better chemists in here, which is great  

I have a long way to go! Happy studying and formulating

[Paprik]

Carbomer is electrolyte sensitive. And needs pH around 6.0 - 6.5. Even if you create a nice clear thick gel, once you introduce the acids, it will turn water thin. Sepimax Zen could hold some acid load.

XG actually needs slightly acidic environment to swell properly. Therefore is suitable for that. 
Succinoglycan gum is also great for acid/electrolytes rich environment. 

Small molecular weights HA won’t gel. The higher MW, the better gelling properties. Over a million kDa would be preferable. 

One thing to point out - Acid peels require low pH. Usually 3 - 3.5. That would not be compatible with your MAP as it requires more neutral pH -  6.0 - 7.0.

Share maybe your whole formula, so we can take a look and help you. 

[Paprik]

Can you be more specific with the trouble you get?

If you’re looking for how to thicken your product, than Carbomer would be useless anyway. There are also some great grades of XG, it might be worth it exploring those options.

You can try to use high molecular hyaluronic acid to gel your product. 

[Paprik]

How are you mixing? 
When mixing small batches, it’s usually hard to prevent foaming. 
If you will use low shear, it should keep it relatively “calm”. However, if you get foam, it should go away by the next day. 

A few questions. I don’t see any preservative? I guess you have one and just did not listed? 
Why so much glycerin? 38% That is whipping lot. (But I saw this in one formula - was checking some suppliers now. Was for cream-type face wash. However I don’t think it’s necessary. )

[Paprik]

And glycerin, possibly Dimethicone (higher cps), urea

[Paprik]

It is surprising how Zahra “knows” everything,. agrees on everything and has done everything you guys tell her before, but she (I assume it is her) still has things to say and having issues.

If you read all the books, have degree in chemistry, have done countless experiments, know everything about the ingredients,  … what seems to be the issue? I’m re-reading everything and I still do not get your point. 

I don’t mean to be rude, but this is second topic (I think) from her and it looks just ridiculous. Like she is making fun of you guys. 

[Paprik]

Nice! Thanks for sharing mate

[Paprik]

@Perry & @Graillotion, thank you guys.  

[Paprik]

Thank you guys!! Really appreciated the feedback and tips. 

I have ordered new silica gel packets (with indication - how fancy aye?) and will chuck a few of those together with Carbomer into smaller zip lock baggies. 

[Paprik]

I had two silica gel packets there and it still went bad. 
But maybe those silica gel packets were old already. I will need to get some new ones and test it out. 
Thanks tho  

[Paprik]

sean9980 said:

Paprik said:

Also, Phenoxyethanol as a solo preservative is not enough. 

Use Liquid Germall plus, 0.5%, goes straight into water and had never issues. 

You could use euxyl pe 9010

Euxyl PE9010 is 90% Phenoxyethanol, therefore using this won’t solve the original issue. 

[Paprik]

Also, Phenoxyethanol as a solo preservative is not enough. 

Use Liquid Germall plus, 0.5%, goes straight into water and had never issues. 

[Paprik]

Unfortunately you do not calculate it. 
It involves using a moisture-sensing device to measure the relative humidity above the product surface in a finished product container. 

However, if your water is less than 5%, you should be usually safe. 
In this case, the sugar probably takes most of the free water. 

(Imagine a bottle of jam. I don’t think they are preserved usually, unless it’s not the true fruit-sugar jam. The available water in those products is usually around 0.6. So you do not get usually any microbial growth, but sometimes, an opportunistic organism tries it and you might get mold or similar)

[Paprik]

Unfortunately we cannot give you proper answer for this. Only PET would. 

Looking at the composition, it looks like your available water would be really low. Thanks to the sugar. 

So options - you might not need preservative at all (if available water <0.6), … 0.5% should be enough … or you can use maximum recommended input 1%.

As it is a wash off product and there is a chance that it will get in touch with additional water (when dipping fingers in or humidity in the bathroom or similar) I don’t see any a problem with using 1%. 

[Paprik]

@Abdullah, hmmm, as it was cationic system, I’m afraid I won’t be able to help. Usually chelating agent helps with this issue. 
Did you have enough antioxidant in the formula?