[NVaughn]

ngarayeva001 said:

That preservative(phenoxy SA) is the worst of all I have ever had. I am not talking about it’s efficacy but the way it messes with overall formula. If you are ordering from makingcosmetics, get Paraben DU also known as Germaben II. There’s also Germall plus that is great for surfactants.

I just had a cold process emulsion fail using Caprylyl Glycol (and) Phenoxyethanol (and) Hexylene Glycol.  First one in two years.  Next time I’ll add post post emulsion.  I sorta stupidly believed a guideline that I suspected was not going to work and added it before combining the phases.  

[NVaughn]

If you have to have high electrolyte content and want a serum or creamy serum you might consider a combination of Seppic’s SepiMax Zen (Polyacrylate Crosspolymer-6) maybe at at 0.5% with Sepinov EMT-10 (Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyldimethyl Taurate Copolymer) at 1%.  SepiMax Zen is very electrolyte tolerant, EMT-10 less so.  You may need to reduce the oil phase closer to 10%.  These are easy to work work with and can be added to the heated oil phase.  You could even do them cold process but you’ll have to add the Zen to water and walk away for 8 hours.  Unless you have a magnetic stirrer and even then you need patience to avoid fish eyes (air bubbles in the gel).
Speaking of oil, why grapeseed?  It’s got a fairly quick shelf life.  Personally, I’d use esters and maybe some squalane. 
Gunther is right. Simplify.  You’ve got so many pricey actives.  Why, what is the goal of it?  Choose one or two and up the usage rate.   

[NVaughn]

@MarkBroussard, thank you. That was helpful to me.

And now, I have worked up the courage to ask what may well be a dumb and obvious question to you guys. I bought a used Sorvall Omni Mixer/Homogenizer. I found instructions how to dissemble and clean the generator probes. Haven’t yet as I’m afraid I’ll harm them but at least I found instructions. I can not find much other info. Big question is - is there a separate chuck that can be assembled to the unit to enable other shafts with different propellers to be used? Or is it meant solely as a homogenizer? FYI, it works like a dream as a homogenizer and I have a separate variable speed control unit. Thanks for any info and tips.

[NVaughn]

Realize Beauty very recently did a piece on chelating agents. She is a big fan of sodium phytate. I don’t recall her mentioning anything about pigments but she did point out cost of the ingredient. You might try adding a question on her post.

[NVaughn]

@Perry, thanks for doing this. Looking forward to it.

[NVaughn]

@Perry Impressively fair minded and I would be grateful for the same treatment in those shoes.

[NVaughn]

Thank you, @MarkBroussard and @Perry.  Nice to know I am learning and can trust my judgement a little.  

@MarkBroussard, that is exactly what my thoughts were about the “fractionally distilled”, simply the extraction method that had nothing to do with preservation or need to preserve.  I had also inquired about testing and the question was ignored twice.  

So, how do vendors get away with improperly (or not bothering to) preserving products?  A large international cosmetic retailer is carrying an item from this line.  Not the toner in question, an anhydrous lip product, but that is going to give the vendor huge exposure!  I don’t understand that.  

[NVaughn]

Recently, I’ve come across two vendors selling toners and there are no preservatives listed.  One was nothing but rosemary hydrosol and the latest is aloe based.  I inquired about the aloe based product and the first response was that they needed no preservative as the product is not water based.  I inquired further and this was the response, “The aloe we source is  fractionally distilled we have certificate of analysis on each batch received.  We had previously used hydrosols in the tonic with food based preservatives.”  

The complete ingredients as listed are:

100% fractionally distilled Aloe Barbadensis Miller (Aloe Vera Leaf), organic glycerin (vegetable glycerin, organic lavendula hybrida or rosa damascena.

Can the glycerin alone preserve this?  Or, would you need to know the percentage of glycerin?  I would think enough glycerin to preserve it would make the skin feel very sticky.

Thanks in advance for your insight.  I always am trying to understand preservation methods to ensure anything I create is safe.

[NVaughn]

Humbled again. I created one for my own use but never thought to have the water percentage self adjusting nor did I add the cost columns.
@bobzchemist - I hope the repeated humbling keeps me from reaching the peak of Mt. Stupid.
How does your spreadsheet version differ from Perry’s?

[NVaughn]

Carbomer again, eh? Thanks for all the comments on the other thread. I’ve played around with the sodium carbomer and hope to find time this w/e to try 940. I had some very nice results with non ionic emulsifiers and even with Rita/Eco/NutraMulse.
Luiscuevasil-your question helped me understand carbomer vs cellulose, esp trying to build viscosity in a surfactant. Thanks for that. Hope yours worked out.
@Belassi - peyote balm!? LOL

[NVaughn]

Thank you to all.

@bobzchemist, I hope one day I can pose a question in that last “Best” format. In the meantime, I will always do my best to be respectful of the experience here and post as much detail as possible. But, sometimes I am just unsure of a general dilemna, ex, which thickener is best to use along with ECOmulse and sodium carbomer when trying to get a smooth cream with a soft, silky skin feel. If it is best that I figure that out through my own experiment I can handle hearing that, though. I just want to know if it is okay to ask something like that.

@belassi - thank you so much for sharing your beginnings. Gives me hope and I dare say other beginners who take a look here.

[NVaughn]

I’ve read a number of posts that are very demanding and rude and have been surprised by it. I can understand how the experts would be offended and not interested in assisting. On the other hand, I am keenly aware most of you are much more knowledgeable and experienced than I am. I’ve been nervous about asking anything or even initially making an introduction. I’ve spent a lot of time researching, learning, experimenting with formulas but it’s intimidating to ask a question here just based on all of your backgrounds. My question might be very obvious to those here even if I have spent time on the subject myself but can’t figure it out. How do I establish that I’ve done background work?

There are those of us new to this and trying to learn to do things the right way. There are brazen one timers, too. The brazen ones will probably never stop. I think Iaskedbetter has a good point in that those who are sincere may get lost in the mix.

Okay, that’s my supply of courage for the week. As always, thanks for all you guys share.

[NVaughn]

@bobzchemist Thank you for pointing out this is derived from berries and not tree nuts.

I used the link you provided, read the info, and learned this has a high HLB. The company states it would be useful in emulsification including oil in water. Have you used the ingredient this way? Just curious if it would be effective and hold the emulsification with a low HLB ingredient.

[NVaughn]

Jane,

Sorry to derail your question with my lecithin response. If you’re at all interested in the perspective of a non-chemist, I’d say there are some homecrafters who will never budge from their stance of “all natural” ingredients. Just take a look at their blogs.

Last night I made a sample batch using ECOmulse. Turned out perfect (don’t love the skin feel). It’s approved for organic products, as I’m sure you know. But some will read the INCI listing and go nuts. I came across one blogger who was even trashing fatty acids and fatty alcohols. Of course, she was also selling a “refreshing toner”. It was nothing but rosemary hydrosol without any preservative. I believe the price was around $30.00 for a few ounces. Bottom line is that some are never going to open their minds and learn. My first experience was from a similarly minded instructor. When my home emulsions consistently failed I sought answers and quickly moved away from the beeswax&borax set.

[NVaughn]

Gazelle,

I’m not one of the scientists here but in a very early formula I made I used lecithin as the emulsifier. I used a formula from a book I had bought. Last one I made from that book. I did not care for the end result. The skin feel was unpleasant to me. Think mayonnaise. I like including lecithin now but not as an emulsifier but as an emollient. You could use it as part of an emulsification system. It’s a low HLB emulsifier so you need to pair it with a high HLB emulsifier. I haven’t tackled creating my own emulsifiers using the HLB system yet. I’m having great success with several complete emulsifiers so haven’t had that need.

I really do like lecithin as an emollient, though. It’s high in fatty acids, phospholipids, and Vit B. Be careful, it smells unpleasant if it’s heated too high for too long. I add it at the end of my oil phase.

Hope that helps a little.

[NVaughn]

Hi, I’m Nanette and I’m new to cosmetic formulating. I’ve been spending quite a bit of time reading through everyone’s posts, learning a lot, and envying many of your science backgrounds. I’ll admit to a certain amount of trepidation introducing myself to such a learned group but it seemed that I should even if I can not offer advice.

My education and background are not in science. I’ve taught myself, through gracious folks like yourselves, the bare basics of formulating and some basic Chemistry 101. I’m doing well with about a half dozen self emulsifiers but haven’t attempted strictly using the HLB system. I’m still trying to keep anionic, cationic, non-ionic ingredients, best preservatives per formula, etc, all straight in my head (and rapidly expanding notebook). I have advanced from the lotion course I took at a local arts center, Spruill in Atlanta, GA, in which the instructor advocated beeswax and borax. When my attempts to replicate those formulas failed I immersed myself in learning why that was. Careful what you ask for! I am completely hooked. Also, a bit surprised about how much I look forward to the time I can carve out of the day to dedicate to learning more or making a new formula.

Perry, I hope to take one of your online courses in the very near future. Thanks to everyone for sharing your expertise.