ngarayeva001
Forum Replies Created
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@Gunther, this is very interesting! I had what was called ‘keratin treatment’ when was traveling (to a second world country actually where I suspect there’s no regulation at all). It was cheap, so I didn’t think twice to be honest. Although I am somewhat experienced in consumer cosmetics (moisturizers, conditioners, shampoo, some color etc) I have no idea how professional hair products (hair dye, relaxers) are made. I am very curious what was it. They applied that solution on my hair and then dried it and straightened with a flat iron. My eyes were burning and that solution really stinks! I had the treatment in March and it still works..
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Apologies, I don’t have any experience with such products, is that what is referred as “keratin” straightening? It’s basically just an extremely alkaline emulsion.
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I have this one. It works fine but is a pain to calibrate
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hanna-Instruments-Electrode-Batteries-Resolution/dp/B0085WOIMQ
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Is there a study that suggests that silicones are not good for low porosity hair? Would be interested to read it.
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@crillz, thank you for pointing it out. You are absolutely right it won’t work in a conditioner, because it’s anionic.
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Then cetyl alcohol.
Here is the thing, “simple conditioner with BTMS-50, nothing complicated” doesn’t tell me anything. You might be using cetrimonium chloride that destroys viscosity and it still will be nothing complicated, because it’s typical ingredient, and many use it in a conditioner. You might have other ingredients that mess it all up and yet, “nothing complicated”. So unless your product is literally BTMS-50, Shea Butter, Water and preservative, it is getting complicated and it’s absolutely impossible to say why it’s “watery”.Conclusion: people please share your formula.
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You know, there is a thing in my industry that it called “professional scepticism”. If manufacturer says that the product is amazing, probably it’s because they are not an “independent party”. This is because they want to make a sale. Don’t trust not independent parties.
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Xanthan is a workhorse. Relatively electrolyte resistant, stable at broad range of pH, cheap and easily available but it’s a disaster from aesthetic point of view. I can’t even describe how inferior it is compared to acrylic acid based polymers.
Also conditioners (conventional) are usually thickened by fatty alcohols, not polymers. Impossible to tell without seeing the formula. -
Just curious whether salicylic acid penetrates and works when it isn’t properly solubilized? Because if not then the risk that someone inexperienced overuses it is minimal. I have a little bit of formulating experience but I cannot solubilize even 2%. Yes it solubilizes in PG. and then recrystalises again (in a toner).
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Thank you, @Perry. I like my very simple hair serum that is basically 20% dimethicone and 80% cyclopentasiloxane (I know it sounds a bit DIY-ish). My idea was to add some cationics in it. I know there is amodimethicone, but I only have access to the water soluble emulsion. I also have several polyquats but all of them are water soluble. I will reduce PQ-10. I didn’t realise that the fact I like 1% in my shampoo doesn’t mean it’s good amount for leave in product. I wonder whether you have seen w/si emulsions in hair products. Maybe I am overdoing it..
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Please post the entire formula. It’s hard to tell without knowing what is already there.
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Similar idea: https://incidecoder.com/products/shiseido-future-solution-lx-total-regenerating-cream
Also $150+
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I agree, La Mer is an example of the formula from 70’s. On the other hand, good old glycerin + petrolatum mix performed in 70’s, performs now and I believe will perform in the nearest future. The main trick is to sell it for £250 per jar.
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Unfortunately the product’s success has nothing to do with the science. As the founder of Revlon said, we don’t sell lipsticks, we sell dreams. People buy cosmetics for how it makes them feel. Active ingredients (even AHAs) take some time to do their magic and businesses don’t have that time because it takes just a couple of minutes to take decision to buy, and that decision is taken based on the experiences (smell, touch, packaging) not objective facts. So whether we like it or not, we can’t ignore the importance of marketing story (watermelon in this case). The most important thing for a formulator is to make sure that the claim ingredient is preserved well and doesn’t mess up with the performance of the ingredients that are actually responsible for the performance (glycerin, oils, AHAs).
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Hi @Gunther, It is a leave on conditioner, and it is too thick indeed unfortunately. The reason I have salts there, is that it’s a water in silicone emulsion. Most of w/o and w/si as a particular case of w/o, require salts for stabilising. As per my modest experience with emulsions of this type, not adding salt is asking for a trouble because it might emulsify and look ok, and then would separate out of blue sky couple of weeks after.
PG does the same thing as glycerin (helps dissolving PQ-10), but I personally don’t like glycerin in hair products, so replaced it.
Regarding behentrimoniums.. that was my first instinct to be honest, but I am not sure they can emulsify 20% of dimethicone, so I decided to make it in w/si format. As per some cosmetic chemistry books, w/o emulsions don’t like ionic compounds, however those books are quite old and I thought maybe this is not an issue for modern emulsifiers. I might try BTMS-50 or behentrimonium chloride. -
I wonder if aspirin even works for this purpose. I heard that many times, but as far as I understand aspirin is acetyl-salicylic acid which is a different molecule.
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Ok, if I change the approach, and make it as O/W, is there a non-ionic emulsifier that can emulsify 20% of dimethicone? I have a couple of silicone compatible o/w emulsifiers but they all contain sodium polyacrylate.
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@Perry, apologies for tagging you directly, but I am very interested in your opinion as I know that you are an expert in hair products. Have you ever seen w/si leave in conditioner? It sounds as a great idea to me, but the fact I couldn’t find any existing products makes me think it must be either not feasible commercially or impossible to stabilise. Thank you.
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That study on niacinamide and LAA incompatibility was done under extreme conditions and isn’t reflect the reality. The only concern for this combination is the pH. LAA performs the best at acidic pH (I believe it’s 3.5) while niacinamide at neutral. You can solve this by using MAP. By the way it isn’t as stable as suppliers say. It oxidizes, maybe slower than LAA but it still does, so you should add antioxidants.
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Just to clarify, hydroquinone isn’t dangerous if used below 2% with a sunscreen but the bleaching creams that give you ‘several shades lighter’ effect are very far from 2%.
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@Majman, please don’t think that white people don’t understand you struggle. I am caucasian mixed with Russian. I am type III photo type on Fitzpatrick scale. However for my Russian relatives I was never white enough and I heard a lot of rather diminishing comments. I grew up with an obsession to lighten my skin (that no one understands because I am ‘white). So, you can be ‘wrong shade of white’. I read many studies because I was interested in this topic and my conclusion is you can’t get significant results without using potentially dangerous methods such as hydroquinone. You can even skin tone out by using AHAs, applying broad spectrum sunscreen and avoiding sun exposure. But you won’t get visible results without risk. Neither with vitamin c, nor with alpha arbutin. You can use vitamin c and market it to your clients as a ‘brightening product’ but as a formulator you must understand what is working and what is not.
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Do you actually use a preservative or you rely on tea tree and rosemary EO? If yes, then you have more serious issue than shrinkage. You do have water in it. Apple cider vinegar is water. So unless the pH is extremely low (which I doubt because of bentonite) it’s a clay in water with plenty of other sorts bug food that isn’t properly preserved.
‘Very rich in essential oils’.. one of the oils is tea tree oil.. that rings a bell. -
I tried to research it previously because one the forum members (who I advised against applying an insane 20% monobenzone moisturizer on her face) asked me of my opinion on glutathione injections. I couldn’t find any proof that even injections or oral treatment work. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3162377/
It either has effect on limited number of subjects or no effects comparing to placebo. In some studies glutathione pills (500 mg for 6 weeks) resulted reduced level of melanin on half of face, which isn’t a desirable effect I believe. There’s more proof that NAG+Niacinamide works (although I would not claim it as a fact). -
@Pharma, that note on salicylic acid is priceless! Appreciate it!
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@chemicalmatt, I generally avoid electrolytes in most of my o/w formulations as I use Aristoflex AVC quite often. But as per my observations 0.1-0.2% of disodium or tetrasodium EDTA do not have negative effect on viscosity.