[Mrs_ditdut]

I’m facing a problem with incorporating honey (raw manuka honey) into this formulation. 

Does anyone have experience in using honey in their product ? 

How to dissolve it properly so i can add it into my water phase ? and do i need emulsifier for it ?

Thank you. 

[Mrs_ditdut]

ngarayeva001 said:

@Mrs_ditdut, get two dropper bottles for pH adjustment liquids. One should be 50% solution of citric acid (it will dissolve easily even in cold water) another for 18% NaOH solution. You can use triethanolamine (TEA) or NaOH. NaOH is cheaper, considered ‘natural’ and stronger. It’s the matter of preference which one you want to use to increase pH (I use TEA, because I formulate for myself and friends and don’t care about ‘natural’ label. Also they sell it in large packs and you don’t need a lot unless you are making soap). For decreasing, it’s always citric acid. I know that lactic acid is used sometimes but citric is the industry standard. Happy holidays!

Thank you so much for your input it helps me a lot and I’m very grateful for that. 

[Mrs_ditdut]

ngarayeva001 said:

It should be a good one. I worked with another crosslinked polymer (same inci as ultrez 21). Make sure you let it hydrate before neutralising or you will end up with lumps. Leave it and don’t stirr, it doesn’t like high shear. Skip sodium gluconate, it might affect viscocity. Add TEA by drop (literally one drop, mix check pH, one more drop etc) and check pH until you are around 7 and it will thicken. Also you will get high viscocity at 0.5%. Try on water first.

Thank you for the tips, it helps me a lot. 

I haven’t made the actual formulation, I’m testing it on water as you suggest it. I learnt that the carbomer will thicken on pH 7, a very newbie question.. how do I lower the pH of the finished product ? using citric acid ?

Happy holidays and thank you again for giving me your input.

[Mrs_ditdut]

ngarayeva001 said:

You need triethanolamine (TEA) to neutralize carbomer. It is not expensive, easily accessible and easy to use. You can also use NaOH, but unless you are making soap and have it on hand I don’t recommend buying it. There are many types of carbomer, some of which do not need neutralization. Ask your supplier what they have. But any carbomer is better than xantham gum. Carbomer makes clear and bouncy gels.

Thank you for your input. I’m thinking of using carbomer now, my supplier has this one (Ultrez21) but that’s the only he has in stock as of now. And it does need neutralizing agent to work. 

Since I’m making a gel mask, thick consistency, shall I start with the carbomer at 0.5% or jump straight to 1% ?

And what do you think about dissolving the raw honey in the glycerin first before incorporating them to the formulation ? 

Thank you  

[Mrs_ditdut]

ngarayeva001 said:

It looks ok overall. The only thing I would recommend, if you can find carbomer use it instead of xantham gum. If you don’t have carbomer, try 0.5% of xantham first. If too runny, make it 1. 2% sounds like too much. 

Thank you so much for the input, now that I look at my finished product, it is too thick, I guess I put waaaaay too much xanthan gum in it. 

I haven’t use carbomer, but I can acquire it, however my supplier told me I need some sort of neutralizing agent to go with it, can you give me any suggestion if I decide to work with it ? 

Thank you so much. 

[Mrs_ditdut]

ngarayeva001 said:

It’s hard to preserve. You need a good preservative.

That’s what I have in mind too, I’m using optiphen+ though, would it be enough ?  I’m thinking of using the raw honey at 2% for this formulation. 

[Mrs_ditdut]

CriticalMicelle said:

@Mrs_ditdut I normally incorporate it between 0.5% - 1.0% w/w in leave-on formulations.

Thank you so much for this input! ::smile:

[Mrs_ditdut]

EVchem said:

The easiest way to learn is to try and make that formula.

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Thank you  

[Mrs_ditdut]

I’m planning to make an essence formulation, so far what I have in mind is this :

80. 5% Distilled Water 

10% Aloe Vera Liquid

1% Saccharide Isomerate

2% Butylene Glycol

2% Oat-Beta Glucan

2% Sea Kelp Bioferment

1% White Tea Extract

0.5% Panthenol

0.2% Sodium Gluconate

0.8% Preservative (Optiphen+)

Am I missing something ? Does the percentage of each ingredient works fine (not irritating) ? Please help…I really need an input. 

Thank you very much. 

[Mrs_ditdut]

CriticalMicelle said:

I have also used Pentavitin and it is very easy to use in aqueous formulations. It is quite different from glycerin or hyaluronate in physical properties - definitely easier to handle than dry hyaluronate. DSM claims it binds with free amino groups in keratin, so it doesn’t wash away unlike other humectants.

Thank you for your
response.

May I know at what
percentage you’re using this ingredient in your formulation ?

[Mrs_ditdut]

DesertInBloomLab said:

Yes, I have used it in a few formulations.  Consider it a Glycerin alternative to give your label something different and use it the same way you use Glycerin in moisturizers.

Thank you for your
response.

May I know at what
percentage you’re using this ingredient in your formulation ?

[Mrs_ditdut]

EVchem said:

I have used this in the blend from DSM (Pentavitin) at 1% or less in formulations. In the blended form it is easy to use and I don’t see any issues since it is at low levels. The suppliers max recommended use of the blend is 5%, and the supplier says about 50% of the blend is the isomerate.  If you have an account on UL prospector you’ll be able to see formulations and the full datasheet

Thank you for your input.

I’m thinking of using 2%, do you think it’s too much ? I’m also using other humectant as well (butylene glycol and glycerin).

[Mrs_ditdut]

EVchem said:

no not necessarily. I meant that in steam distillation you are collecting a lot of small molecule/volatile components and those are usually potential irritants.

Hydrosol is defined as water distillation, but I’ve seen alcohol used in hydrosols to help carry over some less hydrophilic components, or it could be used in high amounts to preserve

Thank you for the information, that really helps a lot. 

Does the risk of potential irritants can be reduced by using a chelating agent on the formulation? Or what I have to do is simply lower the percentage of hydrosol in this formula?

Thank you
 

[Mrs_ditdut]

EVchem said:

I’m curious why no one has mentioned the 15% Cucumber Hydrosol. Does it have any alcohol in it? If it’s steam distilled I might suspect it even more.

Anecdotally, I recently made a product with 5% Cucumber hydrosol and while it doesn’t seem to bother my skin, one of  my testers said it reddened hers.

I use the same cucumber hydrosol undiluted for my face and it doesn’t sting at all, the supplier also mention that it doesn’t contain any alcohol. However, it is steam distilled, should it contain alcohol then?

[Mrs_ditdut]

MarkBroussard said:

It’s most likely the Sorbic Acid in the Optiphen Plus causing a flushing reaction.  Try changing your preservative to something without a sorbate in it.

Thank you so much for your input. 

I don’t have much preservative at my disposal, other than optiphen+ what I can use are Dermosoft 1388 ECO, liquid germall plus and optiphen. What is the more suitable preservative for my formulation? 

If you see in my formulation, I’m using a bunch of extract that contain phenoxyethanol as some sort of preservation system, could this contribute to the burning effect that my toner has?

[Mrs_ditdut]

Belassi said:

In order of probability, my opinion is:
1. allantoin
2. aloe vera at 30%
3. ginseng

Thank you so much for your input. 

Since I’m using allantoin extract in liquid form, the supplier inform me that I need to up my dose in comparion with the powder form to reach the same efficacy. Since the original formulation requires 0.5% of allantoin, then I’m using 1% when I’m using the allantoin liquid extract. Is this still too high?

As for the aloe vera liquid, I haven’t received the complete inci yet from the supplier, however the description of the product stated that it is okay to use the liquid itself topically undiluted, so I figure 30% is okay. 

Should I lower the panax ginseng extract percentage to.. 0.5% ? What do you think ?

[Mrs_ditdut]

#update

One of my friends have sensitive skin, after using this toner her skin turns reddish (also with slight burning sensation). 

What is likely to be the culprit here ? Any reply will be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you very much

[Mrs_ditdut]

So this is what I come up after taking a bunch of great advices. I’m aiming for a basic moisturizing serum that will help with reducing pore size.

89.90% Pure H2O

2.00% Hyaluronic Acid (LMW)

2.00% Niacinamide

0.50% Dl-Panthenol

0.50% Allantoin

2.00% Algae Extract

2.00% Green Tea Extract

0.10% Tetrasodium EDTA

1.00% Optiphen

qs Citric Acid

Feel free to give me your opinion since I’m still not sure about this formulation…. 

Hopefully it will do the job

Thank you very much to each and every one of you  

And since many of you are against HA, what is a good substitute for HA ? is it Glycerin ? 

[Mrs_ditdut]

@ngarayeva001if

it’s low weight and you are going to use it as the only humectant (no glycerin, no propanediol) stick to your original 2% (its gonna be expensive though).

I’m still conflicted with using thickener (xanthan gum) to this formulation, if I use 2% LMW HA, do I still need thickener though? 

Niacinamide is proven to reduce appearance of pores and  improve skin texture. You will get much more effect from Niacinamide than panthenol. Do some research about it. Maximum amount to be used is 5% (some supplies say 6, but reseaches show its effective at 5 and even lower).

If I go with 5%, will it cause flushing to the skin? I think I want to start at 2% and see where it goes from there. 

As experts above say, you can dissolve up to 05% of allantoin. Propanediol would make your life easier but not a must for this formula. I had difficulties even with 0.5% but I didn’t try to heat it as recommended above.

I think for the purpose of learning through failing (which I’m pretty sure bound to happen to me, lol) I’m going to use both ways. 

Regarding xantham, I am afraid you will be disappointed, because the texture you will get is not going to be  like some nice serum bought in a store. It will more like a ranch sauce (check ingredients of sauces in your local store, you will see xantham in most of them). You will only know this through practice though. And in fact your serum would do it’s job anyway. My recommendation don’t go above 0.5% and mix it with glycerin first (there are videos on YouTube on how to make a slurry). And keep in mind, it’s very important to make mistakes.

Thank you for the heads up  

[Mrs_ditdut]

@Belassi  @Perry  @MJL  @MarkBroussard

Thank you very much for the information and for taking the time to respond to my thread. I appreciate it very much and I’m taking notes of everything in here *newbie mode :on*

 

[Mrs_ditdut]

@ngarayeva001 

1) If you use it as a gel maker (and I think in that formula it is intended as a gel maker) I do not think you need more than 0.5%. I made a serum today with less than 0.3%, but it depends on desired viscosity. Start from 0.3%, leave it to hydrate (will take an hour) then if you don’t like it add 0.2% more etc.

I just received confirmation from my supplier, it is low molecular weight. Do you think it’s okay if I go with 1% ?

2) I agree with Perry on panthenol. It doesn’t do much.

Okay, at first I was thinking of adding Niacinamide instead of Panthenol. What do you think ? 

3) No, you can’t dissolve allantoin in glycerin. Allantoin is as tricky as salicylic acid, if you don’t dissolve it properly you will end up with a sediment. Get propanediol, it’s a solvent and amazing skin friendly humectant. It also reduces the tackiness of glycerin.

Noted, also will check that with my supplier. 

4) Xantham creates rather unpleasant slimy texture in general.

If it’s lmw HA do you think it will still be slimy when xanthan is added to the formula? my supplier also has mastic gum and said it’s a better substitute for xanthan. 

5) Lotioncrafter has Tetrasodium EDTA. Get the smallest pack, it will last you forever.

Got it. Thanks <3

6) If this serum is for personal use and you will use it quickly, you will be fine with 0.5% I think. But 1% is ok too.

I’m planning to make a couple for me and my friends to use this serum, that’s why I’m using the 1% preservative. 

7) It is very hard to say how much citric acid you need. Normally you would want a skin friendly pH for your product (roughly 5 to 6), so you should make a concentrated solution of citric acid, add it by drops and check the pH after every addition until you reach your desired pH. 

I know now, thank you for correcting me. 

Unfortunately, you will not get a real effect from allantoin and algae. It will work “for claims” but will not reduce wrinkles. If you are new to formulating, don’t aim to create anti-aging product right away. Start with basic moisturization (that what your serum does) and you will get to anti-aging eventually.

I see, thank you very much  

[Mrs_ditdut]

Perry said:

Lotioncrafter is motivated to get you to use and buy more of every ingredient they sell. You can assume all of the formulas on their site have more of most ingredients than you actually need.

5% panthenol is a ridiculous amount in any formula. My suggestion, use 0.44% or none. There will be no measurable difference. 

Okay, I’m glad I ask around before I actually make that serum. 

Thank you  

[Mrs_ditdut]

Perry said:

No, you don’t need to add anything unless you want to.

Of course, I think you could get the same results using a 5% solution of Glycerin plus a thickener and a preservative. 

Well then I think I need to do more research then…

I’m trying to find a simple formulation for a lightweight serum (hyaluronic acid based). 

Thank you for taking your time to respond to my question  

[Mrs_ditdut]

ngarayeva001 said:

1) Too much hyaluronic acid (unless it’s SLMW). This serum would feel like a glue.
2) Too much of panthenol. 
3) You need 2-3% of propanediol or propylene glycol to dissolve that allantoin.
4) If your hyaluronic acid is HMW you don’t need xantham gum. If you will mix 2% of HMW hyaluronic with 0.5 of xantham you would get a semi-solid substance.
5) You need a chelating agent to boost the preservative efficacy.
6) Speaking of preservative, which one do you use? 
7) Why 0.25% of citric acid?
There is nothing anti-aging and skin calming in this formula.
9) I would add a little bit of glycerin or butylene glycol, but not required.

1) Too much hyaluronic acid (unless it’s SLMW). This serum would feel like a glue. 

Should I dial it down to 1% ?

2) Too much of panthenol. 

https://www.lotioncrafter.com/formulary/DIY_Hydrating_B5_Gel.pdf -> I get the 5% from this formulation and I think I should dial it down as well, 2-3% ?

3) You need 2-3% of propanediol or propylene glycol to dissolve that allantoin.

Can I use glycerin instead? 

4) If your hyaluronic acid is HMW you don’t need xantham gum. If you will mix 2% of HMW hyaluronic with 0.5 of xantham you would get a semi-solid substance.

I will confirm this with my supplier and will let you know. 

5) You need a chelating agent to boost the preservative efficacy.

Okay, I will find reading material on that topic. Thank you for the heads up. 

6) Speaking of preservative, which one do you use? 

Optiphen

7) Why 0.25% of citric acid?

Honestly I’m not sure myself… 

There is nothing anti-aging and skin calming in this formula.

I thought I suppose to get that from allantoin, seaweed extract and green tea extract. So I was wrong? 

9) I would add a little bit of glycerin or butylene glycol, but not required.

Noted. 

Thank you very much