[mikethair]

Hello @Sheng …..in response to your queries: 

- how do you dry? do u put it in oven set at 110C?

We just leave it in our tem/humidity controlled soap cure room for a few weeks.

- and then how do
you granulates? do you put on hammermill? or can we run it in plodder
machine once dried?

Some improvements required here, but we put it through something like a mincing machine, and then into an electric blender. Not the best, but it works OK, and could be improved.

[mikethair]

What we do is put our offcuts through an extended cure period to make sure they are dry, and then put into a blending machine to make into a granule form. These are sold as a washing powder for clothes, and sells VERY VERY well…….we are basically unable to keep up with demand.

[mikethair]

@Bill_Toge ……nice marketing angle…..could sell this shampoo as a top-to-toe and do your dishes at the same time.

I see you do hair products……we sell a lot of this shampoo to a hair salon in Singapore who claim it is one of the best they have come across. Will ask them if they have tried it on their dishes in the lunch room or cafe next door.

[mikethair]

@Belassi …..not sure where your quote has come from, but has not been our experience. Most people rinse their thoroughly after shampooing, and none of our customers  (our production capacity is 10,000 x 250 mL bottles/month) have reported calcium salt precipitates plus opaque/tangled hair.

If the customer demand wasn’t there, we wouldn’t produce this shampoo, its that simple. Generally we are on the back foot trying to keep up with demand. One point though, this shampoo does not suit all hair types, but that proably applies to any shampoo.

[mikethair]

@BartJ is there any reason you would conclude “You know that high pH of a soap bar is unsuitable for hair” ?

We have been producing various recipes of liquid soap for a few years under our own label and for OEM customers that we call a “shampoo,” and it is popular with consumers. The pH of these products ranges from 9.5 to 10.0.

[mikethair]

Good question…..I’m at the same stage, but can only find liquid sodiuym lactate. What I intent to do is give the liquid a try (it is 60%), making some adjustments to the water content of our soap recipe, and evaluate the effect. If it is what we are looking for, will then come back to the question of liquid or solid.

[mikethair]

Why not add the sodium lactate to your NaOH solution after it has cooled?

[mikethair]

In my opinion and experience as a professional  soap maker, soap made using saponified oils/butters could not achieve a pH of 4.5 - 5.5.

My approach would be to ask the client the parameters for defining “natural” soap, perhaps they are not thinking about traditional cold-process soap? Perhaps some Angel Dusting and Greenwashing a SYNDET with a pH of 5 would keep them happy?

Also, ask why the need to be the same pH as skin. Fact of the matter is that soap is more effective as a cleanser at a higher pH, which is in effect the function of soap. The skin can recover back to normal pH fairly quickly without any ill-effects.

[mikethair]

We do a lot of these liquid soaps in 70 Kg batches using the Waring equipment you have described. Agree exactly with what Bobzchemist has suggested. We keep a lot of data on times etc on each batch sheet, which helps to get these mixers calibrated. Once sorted, it all becomes routine.

BTW, we use ours at a fairly high speed, and never found foaming an issue if the blade is kept below the surface.

[mikethair]

It seems that in tight economies many bottle suppliers are rationalising their stock and reducing the number of lines they carry. We have been battling this challenge for some time, and finally decided to bite the bullet and import 50,000 bottles from a manufacturer China. As the lead time is 6-8 weeks, challenge now is determine exactly when we should re-order. Oh, and did I mention the storage space required….another challenge. But in the end these challenges are insignificant to the supply issues we were experiencing previously.

[mikethair]

I haven’t noticed the 1% of product revenue, but did note the US$500.00 registration fee. Will look more closely.

Most of these certification schemes are money grabbing. While perhaps from a strictly scientific standpoint the Verified stamp “provides nothing of real value,’ the real value is how well this is picked up by consumers and influences purchasing decisions. If it becomes a significant determinant in purchase decisions, then perhaps 1% royalty may be good value.

Will certainly be worth monitoring.

[mikethair]

@Belassi makes some good points. We produce a lot of liquid soaps and our experience is:

1. It was an absolute pain to make it.
Yes, but with practice and the right equipment the “pain” can be minimised.

2. It was more drying to the skin. Superfatting results in a cloudy soap, visually unattractive.
Not the case in our experience.

3. The shelf life was not as good.
Not our experience.

4. The synthetic (based on a blend) was easy to make cold - no time spent heating or cooling.
Yes, not that we have any experience with synthetics.

5. The synthetic has better foam.
Yes, probably.

6. The synthetic has far better sensorials.
Many of our customers think otherwise.

7. The synthetic doesn’t dry the skin.
Not our experience or that of our customers.

8. The synthetic tolerates many more fragrances without clouding.
Yes.

9. The synthetic is much cheaper to make.
Absolutely.

Then I guess this begs the question, why do we bother? We believe there is a niche market for these products, plus, we like making these.

[mikethair]

We produce a lot of liquid soaps using various combinations of saponified oils, and none are drying to the skin. The issue largely is not so much the oils used (although it is a factor), but the recipe, and we tend to superfat slightly to help in producing something that is not drying to the skin.

[mikethair]

Old chemistry and very few produce products this way……..we produce liquid body/face washes using saponified oils which are basically “self-preserving.” Always Challenge Tested and come up with top results, and these fit your description of “a product containing either all oils or oils and water be preservative free.”

[mikethair]

Another option is to download “A Complete Guide to Creating Hair Care Products” by Susan Barclay Nichols.

I agree with what ozgirl says, it does take time and experience to get a good recipe to perfection. Plus you do need proper facilities, and I doubt that conditioners (unlike bar soap) can be made at home in the absence of proper GMP facilities.

[mikethair]

@stephanm   the “20 Gal (160 lbs) Water Jacketed Melter/Heater”we are using was purchased from http://www.soapequipment.com

See:  http://www.soapequipment.com/Tanks/

[mikethair]

@stephanm: We find the Waring Blender a bit more versatile, and being more manouverable better able to break up the bigs clumps of soap gel during dilution. I do not think this would work as well as an overhead stirrer, but we have never tried.

We produce the batches of saponified oils and then store in jerrycans for at least two weeks, then check the pH. When you say “mix the saponified oil(s) with the rest of the ingredients” I’m not sure what you mean here. In our case, we just mix with essential oils in the appropraite batch size for the order of face wash, body wash, or shampoo (all different recipes of saponified oils), and usually this is done using a large spoon or paddle.

[mikethair]

We make our liquid soap in a one-pot (water jacketed tank with lid) process in batches of around 70 Kg. We add the KOH once the oil mix is at 70 C, then mix until it thickens (time depends on oils, but usually around 10 minutes).  We stop mixing once the batch is thick, but leave the heat on until the batch goes gel-like and translucent. Depending on the oils, we may allow to sit overnight (heat off, but it remains warm) or add dilution water, mix and allow to sit overnight. If adding water the next day, we heat to 70 C.

[mikethair]

At Indochine Natural we have more or less evolved as you have described stephanm using a similar process of saponification…..small 10 Kg batches and now we use a 20 Gal (160 lbs) Water Jacketed Melter/Heater, and Waring 18″ Commercial Duty Power Wand as identified above by BZChemist. We have not seen the need to purchase a overhead stirrer.

Overall, works well for us, and product demand is high. We run this machine almost every day to keep up with deman, and are probably at the point of needing to invest in a second set up.

[mikethair]

You could try New Directions in USA.

[mikethair]

Thanks @Perry and @Bobzchemist.  I have copied a well known brand available internationally, plus, with the first test batch I have been using for about 2-3 months, so that’s what I mean when I say the formula is “fine.”

I will produce a bigger batch soon, and send it off to the lab for stability testing.

[mikethair]

Thanks for comments….much appreciated.

@Perry     Why the need for the  emulsifiers that you have mentioned.  I have made test batches and they are fine, plus this recipe is based on a commercial product that I have used and liked. The ingredients list did not include emulsifiers.

@markbroussard    Point taken on using percentages, thanks. My reason for adding EOs in cool down phase is that I didn’t want any heat to vaporize the EO. Wouldn’t this be a risk if added along with other oils in heated phase at 45 C ?

[mikethair]

Agree with Microformulation……”You can either be a manufacturer/formulator who needs a businessperson/salesperson/marketer or vice versa.”

We started with our brand Indochine Natural…..but as things developed we were doing more and more OEM/Private Label.  Now we are at a point where  85-90% of our turnover is OEM/Private Label and have opened a second production facility to cope, simply  because we just do not have the resources/expertise to market Indochine Natural.

We dis try outsourcing, and it was a failure. If your products are truly unique in the marketplace, as our are, it is almost impossible.

[mikethair]

Woops typo re the adjust pH……..should delete the “citric acid”

[mikethair]

Thanks for your responses to-date, much appreciated. The first test batch I have done is a 500 gram lot of hair conditioner that has worked out very well, and the responses coming back from testers is all positive….only negative from a few was that EO is perhaps a bit strong.  Anyway, in response to requests for the recipe, her is the hair conditioner. Lets just consider this one for now, and look at the lotion another time.

Heated Water Phase (grams)

Water                                        330.0

Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice      60.0

Hydrolyzed Rice Protein            10.0

Glycerin                                     10.0

Heated Oil Phase (grams)

Cetyl Alcohol                             15.0
Sesame Seed Oil                        7.5
Wheat Germ Oil                          7.5
Jojoba Oil                                    7.5
Rose Hip Oil                                7.5

Cool Down Phase (grams)

Cetrimonium Chloride               10.0
Tocopherol (Vitamin E)                6.0
Nettle Extract                               6.0
Horsetail Extract                          6.0
Phenoxyethanol                           5.0
Benzyl Alcohol                             4.0
Essential Oils                               7.5