mikethair
Forum Replies Created
-
To be sure, best to test.
-
I find it interesting that some are saying “Reduce oils to a minimum.”
Coming from a soap bar production mentality, our approach was exactly the opposite. We used all oils, and zero synthetics.
Our formulations included a mixture of hard and soft oils: Coconut (H), Olive (S), Rice Bran (S), Castor (S), Avacardo (S), Palm (H), and Palm (H). The challenge was to adjust the quantities of each oil to produce the shampoo bar you wanted. And this takes time, given that each bar is cured in a temperature/humidity-controlled environment for 30 days before we evaluated the shampoo bar.
Also in the mix were small amounts of Pomegranate oil, Horsetail extract, Nettle extract for their benefits to hair.
And finally, a fragrance blend of essential oils.
-
I have been formulating products for many years, including shampoo bars. We were manufacturing shampoo bars for our own brand, plus Private Label brands globally. With the current focus on plastic waste, shampoo bars can be a good seller.
You have done only four test bars? Crikey, with my first bars it took me a year to finally get a formulation to where I want it. Now, with the basic shampoo bar formulation perfected, it’s a lot quicker when I formulate Private Label orders taking into account the client’s requirements.
And with soap, you have the added complication of cure time. In our case, we cure soap bars for 30 days in a controlled temperature and humidity in a purpose-built cure room. And at the end of curing, we then test the bars. The quality of curing can impact significantly on any type of soap bar, including shampoo bars.
Also, for every test batch I record all data in Excel including the Batch Manufacturing Records (BMR). And it is these records that become important in soap bar testing and re-formulating.
-
We were producing a lot of this and exporting to various countries, including the US and Europe.
The INCI included:
For solid soap bars: sodium cocoate (coconut oil)
For liquids: potassium cocoate (coconut oil)
Over a period we never had any problems
-
I’m an Aussie living in the tropics, so I come up against this issue constantly.
Counter-intuitive to most, common sense to some – is that a good face oil blend can do wonders for dry skin. And I prefer these over lotions and creams.
I have been formulating and manufacturing for 20 years, and a well-formulated face oil has done wonders for the sales of my Private Label customers. In recent times it has become a high-demand product, outselling lotions/creams full of preservatives and synthetics.
And this is the prime advantage of a well-formulated face oil. You will not find fillers and other gunk that can complicate and aggravate your skin.
And I will usually formulate a number of oils in the product, depending on my client’s requirements. A single oil often does not come up to the mark.
A well-formulated face oil absorbs quickly and evenly into your skin, smoothing patchy skin. And when blending, and depending on my client’s requirements, I will formulate essential oils into the blend. For example, to convey a sense of well-being.
-
Counter-intuitive to most, common sense to some
– is that a good face oil blend can do wonders for dry skin. And I prefer these over lotions and creams.I have been formulating and manufacturing for 20 years, and a well-formulated face oil has done wonders for the sales of my Private Label customers. In recent times it has become a high-demand product, outselling lotions/creams full of preservatives and synthetics.
And this is the prime advantage of a well-formulated face oil. You will not find fillers and other gunk that can complicate and aggravate your skin.
And I will usually formulate a number of oils in the product, depending on my client’s requirements. A single oil often does not come up to the mark.
A well-formulated face oil absorbs quickly and evenly into your skin, smoothing patchy skin. And when blending, and depending on my client’s requirements, I will formulate essential oils into the blend. For example, to convey a sense of well-being.
-
Yes, I have access.
-
I can’t find your FB group THESKYN Majlis. Would be a good start if your group was easily visible.
-
In the cosmetics compliance system I worked within the NaOH would be a red flag at the product registration/notification stage.
From a consumer perspective, it would not be attractive as an ingredient.
Suggest you look at altenatives.
-
I have used CO2 Extracts in the past, and I find them very useful. But you will need to be an experienced formulator to make them work.
-
I don’t see anything “natural” in this formulation.
We took a different approach…..saponified plant oils to produce a hand wash. And the advantages included that there was no need for preservatives as the formulation was self-preserving. We manufactured under certified GMP conditions and all microbial tests were met.
And the product was very kind to the skin, with none of the issues you have described.
-
Must agree….this is amazingly stupid.
But my question is. If they are producing under GMP Certificated conditions, why aren’t these formulations and supporting Challenge Tests not picked up during GMP audits? In our case, it certainly would be.
My only assumption, therefore, is that this company not producing under GMP Certificated conditions.
-
Has Dr Bronner’s brand got it all wrong?
I discovered Dr Bronner’s brand after we started producing our own saponified liquid products. And immediately saw the parallels.
The main ingredients of Dr Bronner’s products are vegetable oils, lye (NaOH or KOH), and essential oils. So, the same as us.
Founded in the U.S. in 1948, Dr Bronner’s is the top-selling natural brand of soap in North America and a leading brand worldwide.
Dr Bronner’s generated nearly $170 million in revenue in 2021 and donated an estimated one third of profits to activist and charitable efforts. A bottle of Dr Bronner’s soap was sold, on average, every 1.7 seconds last year, and a bar of Dr Bronner’s soap was sold every 2.8 seconds.
-
Hi ozgirl,
When you say “if you have too high of a level of oil even in soap-based bars there will be some reduction in foaming,” this has certainly not been our experience. The bars foam beautifully. And again it’s all to do with the selection of oils on which we spent many many many months and multiple trials. We usually do the trial bars in 1 Kg moulds. At the production stage use 12 Kg moulds, and five of these in each batch.
And I agree, “We might have to agree to disagree on this one.” Maybe someone will learn from my alternative approach. As a chemist and scientist, I like to escape the ordinary. It kept my Private Label customers globally coming back.
Thanks ozgirl from an oz guy.
Kind regards,
Mike
-
Hi ozgirl,
What you say is not correct. As specified in our batch manufacturing records, the coconut, olive, rice bran, castor, avocado, and palm oils are weighed and mixed, then saponified. Then small amounts of pomegranate, horsetail, and nettle are then added before the bar solidifies.
I should also add the saponification numbers for the coconut, olive, rice bran, castor, avocado, and palm oils were determined from the CoA provided with each oil, and the correct weight of NaOH was determined and then added.
Further, before we finalized the formulation we did a number of trials with the mix of coconut, olive, rice bran, castor, avocado, and palm oils, and in our laboratory we checked that there was no excess NaOH.
-
I’m easy, whatever suits you.
Kind regards,
Mike
-
I guess as a scientist I have a more critical eye than most when reviewing published papers. I note that the paper you have cited here by Brannan et.al is in fact written by P&G staff. While an interesting paper, it could never be considered as a critical, unbiased review of the correlation between in vito challenge testing with consumer testing for cosmetics.
Are you aware of any subsequent published papers reviewing these findings by Brannan et.al?
I also note that preservative adequacy was tested independently of container design. As we are all aware, container design is a big factor in protecting consumer skin care products.
And if container design provides adequate protection, even poorly preserved products would not be contaminated by consumer use. This aspect was not investigated.
And the final sentence “Additional studies are needed to assess these effects.” Yes, indeed. Have there been any additional studies?
In my opinion, while there is some merit in these findings by Brannan et.al, more work is required. Especially in determining the practicalities for manufacturers in adopting revised testing methods.
-
In essence, you have not answered my question “what data are you looking for?”
For your information, we follow The EU Cosmetics Regulation and to date have not had any issues selling our products in the EU. The EU Safety Assessment Officer was happy with our data.
And our Certified GMP Compliance requires us to keep retained samples for two (2) years beyond expiry at ambient temperatures. We are in the tropics, so this pushes products to their limits.
And in our two in-house labs (physical chem lab and microbial lab) our Quality Manager would conduct ongoing lab tests every month (for two (2) years beyond expiry at ambient temperatures). This, in our opinion, provides a reasonable assessment of our products to be safe for human health when applied under normal or reasonably foreseeable conditions of use.
And of course, there are our customers. If they detect product issues, we are easily contactable. To date, over 10+ years has never happened.
<div>OK, then what would you suggest as an alternative?</div><div>
Are you a manufacturer conforming to GMP Compliance, and placing products successfully in the EU market?
</div>
-
When you say “Consumer data? Can you share it?” What data are you looking for exactly? And in what format?
With our Certified GMP Compliance data we have a lot of data going back 10+ years. And it is not clear what you are looking for here.
-
Yes indeed, have in-use data going back 10+ years.
-
And in response to your question “Do they ever ask questions re. the data?“
Yes, absolutely. During the audit, there will be numerous verbal questions. And these will be followed up with more detailed written questions.
-
In response to your question “What is “everything” GMP data? Finished product and raw material
testing? monitoring data? water testing? batch sheets? yield? training
records?”The answer is yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes to each.
-
When you ask “What “GMP data” are you sharing?” then it’s everything.
First, ee need to notify the product before it goes onto the market with National Pharmaceutical Regulatory Agency (NPRA). They of course will check the ingredients list and preservative regime.
Next, we have “surprise visits” by the local office of NPRA. Here it’s a case of a phone call saying they are outside and want access. These are short, very focused visits. And all of our records and Batch Manufacturing Records (BMRs) must be available. We can never know what they will focus on.
And finally, we have formal inspections every two (2) years. Here a team from the NPRA Head Office will spend one or two days going through everything.
Across all of these compliance checks, the issues identified with this “stupid company” would be identified.
<b data-dtype=”d3ifr” data-local-attribute=”d3bn” data-attrid=”title” data-ved=”2ahUKEwi9y9L9utz9AhUE-DgGHaM1C7UQ3B0oAHoECFEQAQ”>
-
We have exported to many countries and most customers are requesting our GMP data in order to conform with local regulations. My assumption is that it is mandatory.
-
Thanks again for your response.
Yes, I accept that liquid soap is not immune to microbial contamination, and the reason we manufacture under strict GMP Certified conditions.
Yes, our body wash/face wash/shampoo products are the classic soap, alkaline pH-based composition.
And as a scientist, over the years I have contaminated our finished products with various bacterial strains in our microbiology lab. And all came up negative. And have sent our saponified liquids to external labs for similar testing. All came back negative. This was mainly designed to look at the consumer side potential for contamination in the shower/bath.
I am not a supporter of the “clean beauty” concept and agree that the preservation systems adopted are sometimes questionable, as is the entire “clean beauty” notion.
<div>After starting to produce our saponified liquid products I discovered Dr Bronner’s range of products.
And with their products being sold on average every 1.7 seconds, any problems with saponified liquids I’m confident would have shown up by now. The company was
founded in the late 1940s, so they have been around for a while. Dr Bronner’s
generated nearly $170 million in revenue in 2021, so they are not short on resources.And your statement “Not aware Dr. Bronner has so qualified their systems and wouldn’t take
just their word for it anyway. Their systems don;t impress.” Then what does impress you?And finally, there is a proportion of consumers who are affected by the synthetics in skin/hair care products. These include my wife. And the consumers are generally silent. But we hear them as producers of synthetic-free products that actually work.
</div>