[MarkEMark2]

Any thoughts? 

My question is:

Would the addition of more glycerin help keep the final product more creamy? Since I am using bottles and not jars for the final product, I’d like it to be creamier when finished. 

My palmetic acid is old - I bought it in 2017-ish but had to buy 50 pounds of it and I tend to make small batches, so I don’t know if that will affect the moisture content.

[MarkEMark2]

Great info all!

I really appreciate the help from the group.  Based on this information I will make the initial batches more water intensive, and let cure for 1-2 months before bottling. Also will research Polysorbate 20. I use a fair amount of glycerin in the initial mix, but other additives my help the thickening issues.

[MarkEMark2]

Belassi: Interesting - so a Palmetic/Stearic acid blend would require a “seasoning” period after manufacturing before sale/bottling…?

Would that make the best sense for this? 

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this. You were one of the ones that really helped me when originally starting this whole process. I have not forgotten your help and appreciate your advice.

[MarkEMark2]

Wow David, many thanks for the willingness to advise.  I know from following u on some of your posts that you have ventured down the road of R&D quite a bit, and I appreciate your willingness to share some wisdom.  As I mentioned in my reply to you in the other thread i posted regarding the thickening of my product over time, you have been most generous on this forum with your experience gained during trial and error.  

I will check out the link you provided. I have also found some places online that sell samples for a $1 per scent and I thought of trying some of those to test as well… I think the women’s market will demand this addition, as my wife’s only complaint is that “It has no smell!”

So the work is never done 🙂

[MarkEMark2]

Hi David:

This is what I was thinking as well. I have let some of the product sit for 2-3 months, and perhaps I might wait to bottle it until the time has elapsed. Thanks you for your feedback.

I also have done a search on your posts on this forum as was recommended for me to do in another thread in answer to adding fragrance to a shave soap. To this end I have discovered a Kindred spirit in the manufacturing and tinkering with Shave products. I have enjoyed your posts and progress reports on your experimentation. Connecting offline sometime would probably be an enjoyable conversation 🙂

Many thanks for the insight offered on this issue. I think it confirmed my suspicions. My shave product uses a Palmetic Acid based formula, and is a very smooth and creamy consistency when finished, and I really like it personally. I have sampled quite a bit to friends and acquaintances, and all seem to report the same thing: Smooth, comfortable and very slick. My main issue has been lack of any fragrance (outside of the Menthol version I have made) and adding this to the mix will be important moving forward. So, the tinkering continues 🙂

Thanks again.

[MarkEMark2]

Many thanks DAS.  I will check out the @David8848 threads!

[MarkEMark2]

The product is in the Tottle bottles and sealed. When opened, the consistency has thickened, and this is what puzzles me. I am wondering if there is some chemical reaction/cause of this, or if the product is dehydrating through the thick plastic bottle. It is a MDPE bottle, so I would think the plastic is a sufficient barrier to dehydration, thus leaving me to wonder if there is a certain thickening over time with the formulation - is just fine when I complete the initial saponification and resting phase, but thickens over time.

I’m stumped as to why and wondering if anyone can shed some light on this. Any additives needed to prevent this?

Thanks!

[MarkEMark2]

Ah! Ok… That helps.

Thanks again for your help (you in particular on this project of mine…

[MarkEMark2]

Ah! Thank you.  Would the difference in the oil (easily accessible) versus the Acid make a large difference in a shave cream of the kind I have been making Belassi?  For this purpose would they be interchangeable?

[MarkEMark2]

New Question: I dunno if this should be a separate question thread or not, so here goes…  3 questions:

1. I have noticed the last batch I made of this soap was HIGHLY effective at cleaning oil skin. I have been shaving in the shower, and when I apply the soap, I will smear it all over my face, then rinse off my hands. It takes a second or so to get it to rinse off fully, but when it does, my hands are definitely clean! Squeaky clean. Noticeably un-slick… But very clean feeling. So I am not sure why this might be happening. I have not noticed this in even the commercial bar soap I use, so I am wondering if I need to add something to the mix to soften the soap’s ‘power’?  Batch consists of Palmitic and Stearic Acids, Glycerin, and water. 5:1 mix of Potassium to Sodium hydroxide for saponification.
2. I have measured the soaps pH value (using the only thing I have available right now until Amazon drops off the pH meter… pH strips) and it looks to be in the 8-9 range.  I noticed the current batch of this mix leaves my neck feeling a bit razor burned but not due to actual razor burn (skin is not cut up, but it has a low grade feel of that same feeling). Could this be a pH issue? At a 8-9 pH measured finished product?
3. What should the target pH of a product like this shave cream be for best use? Is there such a thing as a target pH for something like this?

Such newbie questions, but I have no where else to turn for good advice!! Thanks all!

[MarkEMark2]

Hi David!

Many thanks for your feedback. I am making a cream style shave cream versus the brush and cup style. I have been making notes and beginning to fill up my notebook as well!

I appreciate the detailed help. I didn’t know the propylene glycol could be added in the water phase as well. I’ll try this next time. I find that I am not using a lot of it in the final mix, BUT, this last batch seemed a bit thicker than my last batch, so I am wondering if I should add a bit more next time.

Again, thanks for the help and feedback!

[MarkEMark2]

Belassi: I am using the 5:1 K/Na ratio: 5 parts KOH to 1 part NaOH and it appears with a 2 hour cook I get a fairly good saponification, but of course the Ph will tell me how well.  Looks can be deceiving. 

I added no additional “superfattening” to the mix. I found the initial product satisfactory, but I am not done experimenting.  I am not sure with this mixture what the benefit or added value to the blend would be with a superfat mix (again, experience will tell).

[MarkEMark2]

Uh, Slap forehead and shrug my shoulders.

Ph values. This is the reason I started to post the question over the weekend, and realized I could not answer the Ph question, as I need to find the right strips/measuring process.  I completely forgot this when I posted the question today. Thanks for the gentle reminder.  I will need to order something to test this, and not sure what would be best.

Any suggestions for a reasonable method to test the Ph of these batches? Would strips be OK for this or do I need a better solution.

I admit, this one is a really basic question, but I will follow up on your recommendations.

Thanks again.

[MarkEMark2]

Thank you both. I never personally affronted or harshly spoken to, but have read elsewhere others that did and I was actually trying to support your positions that no one is gonna hold your hand without you doing do diligence in the first place!

so, now I begin to research after shave creams to go along with my new re-creation!

Again, many thanks for the help!

[MarkEMark2]

A follow up report:

I’d like to thank the group for helping me through the process of starting my shave cream process, and especially Bobzchemist for posting the patent of the cream similar to what I wanted to create.

I spend the entire weekend with this project and learned a massive amount, and created some really nice soaps in the process. I educated myself on the processes and must have spend untold hours in research on the materials, processes and techniques, and the guidance of the group here was the starting point for me.

Many thanks to those that were patient with me and my questions. I am off to the races. I think groups like this, when comprised of others with great knowledge, can be harsh to the newbie looking to get started. Unfortunately, this can discourage someone that might actually find an interest in this area, and become a valuable resource for the community.

Because of this group, and Perry’s support, I have referred my adult daughter to his site and online classes because she has a strong interest in cosmetics and potentially creating her own brands. So, your work lives on in the minds of even folks that do not yet contribute here.

Thanks again. The cream soaps still need tweaking, but I had 4 very successful batches, with one of them turning out well, but so different from the rest that it might be the subject of another thread.

[MarkEMark2]

Thank you Belassi. I appreciate the help!

[MarkEMark2]

Thank you all for the advice and feedback. I am about to begin my experimenting this week, and have a few questions now related to process. I have researched the soap making process, and have some assumptions related to the cream soap I am wanting to produce. This will be a cream combination of stearic and palmetic acids, with water and glycerin in the final product.

Here are my assumptions based on a final formulation of 45% water, 45% palmetic and stearic acid soaps, and 10% glycerin.  I am basing my starting point on the document bobzchemist posted near the front of this thread. It references 2 soaps made from different lye (palmetic saponified with Potassium and Stearic with Sodium made a more acceptable final product).

Assumptions:

1. Both the palmetic and stearic soaps will be made as a solid soap bar before being blended with each other and made into a cream. Is there a way to turn the soap into the cream product along the way? Or, when making this type of shaving cream, do you add glycerin to the trace portion of the batch and keep it in a cream state from the beginning? It seems the soap would need to fully convert to a solid before mixing other elements, but would require grating the soap to dissolve with the water.

2. Is there any ingredient in the list posted earlier that would interact with LDPE or PET plastic as a container to market this in? All of the similar products I have seen are packaged in a hard plastic jar and require unscrewing a large lid versus flipping a cap to dispense. I have transfered a similar brand of this formula to an empty Colgate toothpaste bottle and used it to shave in the shower, which has made it much simpler to use than the jar packaging. But, I don’t know if there is some formulation reason for doing this. (I.e.: some element etches/dissolves PET plastic…)

Thanks again for the guidance.

Mark

[MarkEMark2]

Bob, I am very grateful to you for the help.

I thought I had searched the patents correctly (based on the info I had) and didn’t think of Google patents. I have just proven I need to spend more time trying to figure our how to research better.

Thanks for helping me on this. I really appreciate you taking the time.

[MarkEMark2]

Thank you Bill.  I appreciate the feedback.

Of the ingredients listed, is there a subset that any of you would recommend I start with that would simplify this list?

My initial thoughts was to start with the following, and see if that might get me close:

Water Myristic Acid

Stearic Acid

Glycerin

Propylene Glycol

The whole list being: Water Palmitic Acid Myristic Acid Stearic Acid Potassium Hydroxide Coconut AcidGlycerin Triethanolamine Sodium Hydroxide Lauric Acid Propylene Glycol Tetrasodium Edta Disodium Edta Phenoxyethanol Methylisothiazolinone

Thank you all for the guidance!

[MarkEMark2]

Many Thanks for the reply.  I completely agree with your assessment that the success of this venture will largely be determined by the marketing efforts.  The shave oil blend I have had done well in limited batches with word of mouth.  I have some potential investors that can help with the marketing, as the material costs are manageable to start.

I can find much of this in small batches, but the Palmitic acid seems to be the hardest to find, but next to the water content, the largest ingredient on the list… I found Palm Kernal Flakes, and wondered if that was the same as Palmitic Acid.

One additional question I have is whether the list of ingredients on a bottle, per regulation, might list the individual components of the actual ingredient used (such as in coconut oil or Palm oil: the sub-fractions such as Palmitic acid, myristic acid, Lauric Acid, etc that are components of “palm oil”). Instead of just listing “Palm Oil”, they list the sub-fractions that compose the product they use to make the creme. Thus, if I am ordering materials to begin experimenting, I’d be better off ordering the “complete” ingredient instead of recreating “Palm Oil” (or other such ingredients) from the complete list of ingredients.  The list I have is:

Water
Palmitic Acid
Myristic Acid
Stearic Acid
Potassium Hydroxide
Coconut Acid
Glycerin
Triethanolamine
Sodium Hydroxide
Lauric Acid
Propylene Glycol
Tetrasodium Edta
Disodium Edta
Phenoxyethanol
Methylisothiazolinone

I advice on this formula y’all might have as I start my process I’d be very grateful for!  Also, any “like kind” substitutions you may advise would be of help as well as I seek to create my own product.