MarkBroussard
Forum Replies Created
-
Let me clarify for you … what I am saying is that select synthetic preservatives are necessary to develop a safe product because that is where the natural options mostly fail or are simply not available. That is why Sodium Benzoate is allowed in most natural standards, even though it is synthetic. You could always use Benzoic Acid or Sorbic Acid as nature-identical synthetics, but the drawback is the limited solubility, so they will work in some product formats, but not in others.
I don’t advocate labeling a synthetic preservative as natural, but you’re going to have to allow certain synthetic preservatives in natural products, yet still call the product Natural. Most natural consumer resistence is on parabens and formaldehyde releasers and some retailers have put a target on phenoxyethanol. But, generally, people don’t have an issue with the organic acids, for instance.
The proposed Natural Cosmetics Act does accomodate the use of synthetics where no natural option is available. I suspect as this moves through the process, that there will be a defined list of allowed synthetics and this will mostly be in the area of preservatives.
-
grapefruit22 said:https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/5017/text?r=4&s=1
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5872?s=1&r=3The Natural Cosmetic Act you discussed is the first or second document?
In Natrue, the required amount of natural substances other than water is quite small (depending on the product), according to Cosmos Natural water is included as a natural ingredient and they don’t require minimum amount of other natural ingredients. But in the first document they require 70% of natural substances other than water. It’s a lot.
I thought the citric acid was mostly of natural origin, not from citrus, but from the fermentation of glucose from plants.It’s both. The bill failed to advance out of committee on it’s first submission and was reintroduced when a new Congress was seated.
-
Consumer wants, needs and desires drive a market, not the other way around unless you are intent on failure. It is perferctly reasonable for a consumer to say “I want personal care products that do not contain any synthetic ingredients”. That creates a stretch goal for industry and has driven an expolsion in the development of new natural and naturally-derived ingredients and products. Your standard of isolation, solvent extraction, biotechnological manufacture are indeed the basis of defining natural ingredients.
Natural was primarily driven by consumers who had sensitive skin issues and those concerned about the safety of putting synthetic chemicals on their skin or just a philosophical want for natural only. That was the driving force behind the development of the natural segment of the market, not companies try to convince people they needed natural ingredients. Many of us in the natural market do not use essential oils for instance. They are natural, but can be harmful to the skin. There are a variety of natural ingredients that we won’t use because, although natural, they may not be safe or have other drawbacks. So we disciminate equally between some natural ingredients and synthetic ingredients.
Now you get down to the issue of product safety, which is where select synthetics and nature-identical synthetics play a role in the natural market, particularly preservatives. For the most part consumers understand this, but they are looking for the most benign synthetics available which is why there is a tolerance in the natural market for Sodium Benzoate that has a natural analog in Benzoic Acid, for instance. For the absolute purists, there’s always ethanol.These consumers just don’t want to use syntetic ingredients that are not absolutely necessary to the safety of the product. Unfortunately, some companies use “Made Without” marketing claims to easily communicate to consumers that they don’t use certain synthetics. If the Natural Cosmetics Act passes, that type of marketing would not be used nearly as much … just put your Natural seal on your product is all you would need.
-
What I suspect will most likely happen (in the US, at least) is that to be able to market a product with a Natural seal, is that you will first have to have your product reviewed by an approved certifying body, just like you do in Organics. There will be one government-sanctioned/approved definition of Natural and the definitions offered by private organizations such as Natrue, Cosmos, etc. won’t be recognized or necessary. But, those organizations are well set up to become the ceritifying bodies, so they won’t go away, but their seals will be meaningless in the marketplace. Frankly, they’re kind of meaningless in the present.
-
The reason different organizations have come up with their own definition of natural is to provide some guidance or set a common framework for natural products. Why? Because there is strong consumer demand for natural personal care products and governments have failed to address the issue in creating a legal definition. This applies not just to individual ingredients, but also the processes that are used to manufacture those ingredients and simple chemical reactions like esterification. The Natural Cosmetics Act solves the problem and its primary proponents are companies within the natural industry who want the goverment to put a legal definition/framework in place. If you are familiar with the various natural standards, you will find that there are some minor differences between them, but they are basically all the same thing.
By synthtically made ingredients being called natural, are you referring to Nature-Identical, but synthetically manufactured ingredients, such as Citric Acid? If so, this is necessary because it is not economically feasible to produce Citric Acid from biomass on a commercial scale. In many cases, you would do far more damage to the planet if you restricted the production of Nature-Identical compounds to extraction from biomass than if you allowed synthetic production of Nature-Identical compounds.
And, you will, by necessity, need to allow the use of some select synthetics for use in natural products. Take Sodium Benzoate & Potassium Sorbate, both of which do not occur in nature, although their precursor acids do, but the salts are more commonly used as preservatives. But, I am unaware of any purely synthetic compound that is allowed by any of the natural standards unless there simply is no natural or nature-derived alternative and that ingredient is absolutely critical to making safe products. This is particularly true with preservatives.
It’s all definitional, by necessity. It confounds me the howling about lack of transparency and ethics, when it is the natural industry itself who are the main proponents of government passing the Natural Cosmetics Act. It’s companies like SC Johnson who are the culprits, but then you find companies engaging in deceptive advertising in all segments of the cosmetics industry and no one would really consider SC Johnson a player in the natural segment of the industry.
-
Thanks, Phil. Perhaps I read a bit of bad info about that.
-
Correct, NCA is a House Bill reintroduced by Mahoney in November 2021. I read that it had also been incorporated into the Feinsten Collins Senate Bill.
-
@Perry:
I’m a bit in disagreement with that. I think lots of companies will continue using Retinol and other ingredients that don’t fit into a Natural classification because they are superior in performance. But, they will hop into the Natural market for select products, so you’ll continue to have a Natural market separate from a Non-Natural market with companies offering products in both market segments. Fear marketing … that’s exactly something you want to get rid of. Instead of “Does Not Contain” if your product qualifies, it will simply be labeled Natural and you’ll have to compete on the merits.
-
PhilGeis said:Wonder if Feinstein Collins will get any more traction than previous attempts.
Hope so, Phil. I have a hard time imagining why anyone would oppose it. It brings clarity to a market, that at $50 billion annually, I’m sure most companies would want to participate in. But, they’re going to also have to allow Nature-Identical synthetics in the definition to make it work properly.
The bill calls on the FDA to establish definitions of natural and naturally-derived. If it passes, I suspect they will look to COSMOS, Ecocert, NPA, ANSI 305 as starting points. And, you’ll probably have a Natural or Naturally-Derived certification of specific ingredients, just like you do in Organic.
-
Do you have any restrictions on what you can use?
-
This is exactly why the FDA should define Natural and Naturally-Derived. Apparently, the Natural Cosmetics Act is now incorporated into the Personal Care Safety Act sponsored by Feinstein & Collins in the Senate. Everyone in the personal care industry would benefit … small companies, large companies and consumers. It would provide clarity for all.
The Natural Cosmetics Act is very well written … it’s a good proposed law. Without it, organizations like NPA, Natrue, Cosmos are the best guidance anyone has, although not legally binding. It is confounding that it did not make it out of Congress particularly given the size of the market and strong consumer demand.
-
@Perry:
Because no one legitimately formulating in the natural arena would ever include Phenoxyethanol, EHG, Dimethicone, PEG-100 Stearate in a product and call it natural. Also, note this is a proposed class action lawsuit, so it seems more a law firm fishing for a lawsuit. You would have to read the entire filing to understand what they are specifically claiming … the authors of the article could have just cherry-picked some ingredients and it’s not a full listing.
With Propanediol, Sorbate, Benzoate, Citric Acid, SC Johnson could claim they were following a particular natural standard as these are allowed in most standards and that they were either bio-derived or nature identical.
Here’s the heart of the claim “The lawsuit alleges that S.C. Johnson and Oars + Alps are aware that a reasonable consumer would interpret “natural” to mean that a product is without synthetic ingredients” By including PEGs, Dimethicone, PE9010, SC Johnson clearly knew those were purely synthetic ingredients.
The lawsuit is between one specific plaintiff and defendant. As I said, I think it may have an impact on the marketing language companies use, but won’t go beyond that.
-
In looking at this closer, this lawsuit will not change anything. The lawyers have SC Johnson dead to right on intentionally misleading consumers. There is no way they can justify that they did not know they were using several synthetic ingredients in their products, including PEGS.
And, unfortuantely, the Natural Cosmetics Act is dead … it did not advance in Congress.
-
@Perry:
Yes, but there is nothing preventing the FDA from adopting/using the same definition of Natural that the USDA does.
Actually, I don’t think Oars + Alps would be in compliance with the proposed Natural Cosmetics Act … they use Ethoxylated ingredients which would be prohibited under the Act.
It would be nice if the Natural Cosmetics Act became law to put an end to the nonsense surrounding the definition of Natural.
-
You actually need two or three ingredient definitions. (1) Natural (The USDA definition is a good start; (2) Naturally-Derived, meaning ingredients that use precursors that are naturally derived, plant-based, but synthetically modified to yield the final ingredient; (3) Nature-Identical, but synthetically manufactured. But, I doubt that will ever happen by the FDA.
In looking at their products, the Oars + Alps natural claims focused on the natural ingredients they did use in their products, but completely ingnored the PEGS and other synthetic ingredients they also used, so it was a pretty blatant case of making false natural claims. They clearly were not following any natural standards, so they can’t use that as a defense of any kind.
I think given the egregious violation, this case will get settled out of court.
-
Generally, no your preservation system is weak.
You should add a chelator, Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate both work by the same mechanism of action … use only one, not both and preferrably Sodium Benzoate. You’ll need to add an anti-bacterial and a pH adjuster.
-
@Perry:
I think it will affect the marketing language more than anything else. With the pandemic, consumer preferences have shifted more to skinminalist performance products … more to what has been defined as Clean Beauty, although that term is also under pressure. Yes, you are correct, it may well knock a few product formats out of being marketed as Natural. Until such time as the FDA adopts the USDA Draft Guidance Decision Tree as a defintion of Natural, if it ever does, it will continue to be an open question as to what exactly is a Natural ingredient.
-
Cosmetic_Chemist said:Hi everyone!
I was hoping someone could validate my formula - mainly I want to know if the preservative system is okay
water - Qs
Hydroxyethylcellulose - 1.0%
Propanediol - 3%
Sodium Benzoate - 1.0
Potassium Sorbate - 0.5%any other ingredients that you think I should add?
It has to be clean at sephora!Thank you!
Firs of all you are too high on both Sodium Benzoate and Postassium Sorbate. That should be more in the range 0.4% and 0.2%, respectively.
Second, your pH is going to have to be less than 6.0 and more preferrably around 4.5
-
“According to a U.S. Department of Agriculture Draft Guidance Decision Tree for the classification of materials as either synthetic or natural, a substance is natural if it is made, produced or extracted from a natural source and has not undergone a chemical change so that it is chemically or structurally different than how it occurs naturally. Likewise, a substance is natural if a chemical change affecting it was created by naturally occurring biological processes, such as composting, fermentation or burning, the suit states“
If this suit prevails, this may actually a good thing because it provides clarification and a definition of “Natural” ingredients as being essentially minimally-processed extraction or biotechnological manufacturing. Note most of the ingredients they objected to are preservatives. It will take a couple of options currently used to preserve natural products, primarily Potassium Sorbate and Sodium Benzoate, off the table. No, it won’t be the end of Natural, it’ll just result in some posers changing their labelling and marketing. -
naramade said:Hi! Paprik, tocopherol acetate has no antioxidant protective benefits in formulas, it only provides antioxidant benefits to the skin. It’s a very common mistake though.
Not really, the conversion of Tocopherol Acetate to active tocopherol in the skin is only 6% … It’s virtually worthless as an antioxidant.
-
Your product is not properly (weakly) preserved and you’re using Siligel that contains Lecithin which is probably the best nutrient for microbial growth of any ingredient you can use. I suspect your problem is actually microbial contamination.
Try eliminating the Potassium Sorbate and switch to Gluconolactone (and) Sodium Benzoate at 1.25%, but you will need another preservative to cover bacterial contamination.
-
What equipment are you using to form the emulsion? A homogenizer, a stir plate or an overhead stirrer?
Sucrose Stearate will generally foam if you homogenize it in the water phase. If you then follow up with a paddle stirring @300RPM with an overhead stirrer it will help deaerate the mixture. Don’t use a stir plate as the magnetic stir bars will often introduce air into the system.
-
If you are making the same products repetitively using these hydrosols, just add some of the preservative ingredients you add to your completed formula to these extracts once you open the container and you will be fine.
-
If you try Sorbithix L-100 you’ll want to first heat up your mixture to about 50C. Add the Sorbithix as the final ingredient while stirring@500 RPM or so. Let it stir for a couple of hours and it will build viscosity over the next 24 hours or so. Start with 2% to 3% Sorbithix. Note: It is a very good viscosity builder, but is not effective will all surfactant systems, so you’ll have to experiment with it.
The fragrance is probably the culprit. If Sorbithix does not work in your system, try Acrylates Copolymer.
-
You are aware that PE9010 is not natural? Yes, firs pre-dissolving PE9010 in a glycol helps to better dissolve it in water. Same with Phenethyl Alcohol.