[lwere]

Pardon the naive question, but what is the difference between a homogenizer and a low shear mixer?

[lwere]

emma1985 said:

lwere said:

I make a body lotion but I’m a newbie. I am looking for consistency in texture each time I make it. I would also like it to be very white and very smooth. I find that my consistency is not consistent. 

I found that it looks thicker and whiter when I add microwax. Using an overhead lab stirrer and an immersion blender produce different consistencies. 

What are the tricks and methodologies you all use to ensure a cohesive, smooth texture in your emulsions? Are there any tricks? Procedures - order of manufacturing process? Timing and speed of stirring? Ingredients? Do you stir for a standard amount of time? I will appreciate input on this.

What’s microwax?

In my experience the emulsifier makes a huge difference in how white the emulsion turns out. I love super white emulsions so I use Montanov L and Glyceryl Stearate PEG 100 Stearate a lot. High shear creates whiter emulsions as well.

You should always use an immersion blender, followed by slow stirring either by hand or with the overhead stirrer.

Some emulsifiers don’t like a lot of shear so adjust as needed.

My biggest thing when I was new was air bubbles. 

I’ve found that limiting turbulence as much as possible reduces air bubbles and creates smooth emulsions.

In practice, this means using my immersion blender on low speed when I first combine phases before the emulsion has started gaining viscosity. Then as the emulsion thickens, increase the speed. 

On the flip side, you don’t want to blend too much when the product is at full viscosity either, because that also can introduce pockets of air. This is why I use an overhead stirrer at this stage. I think overhead stirrer works better than hand stirring at this stage. 

Thanks for this. Microwax is microcrystalline wax.

[lwere]

Graillotion said:

Yes… process can make a huge difference in the end product…even when the ingredients are identical.

Here is a video a friend sent me recently, that demonstrates this:

Making an Emulsion // Hand Stir VS Homogenizer - YouTube

I guess…the first rule of consistency…would be…..Be consistent.  Once you get your process down, time everything, and make that part of your instructions.  This would also include….what settings your machines were at during each interval.

As far as whitening, many things contribute….from what emulsifier, what fatty alcohol…how yellow you oils/butters are….and of course….process.  So yes…in your last paragraph….all of those are factors will contribute.

Thanks for this and for the link. 

[lwere]

Paprik said:

Ok, first let me organize the formula  

water 78.45%
Carbomer - 0.05%
Triethanolamine - 0.5%
glycerine - 2.5%
sorbitol - 1%
sodium lactate - 2.5%
butylene glycol - 1%
propylene glycol - 0.8%
DiSodium EDTA - 0.25%

mineral oil - 4%
dimethicone - 1%
IPM - 1%
isopropyl myristate - 1%

petroleum jelly - 0.5%
Cera microcrystallina- 0.5%

Stearic acid - 2%
cetearyl alcohol - 1%
Glyceryl monostearate - 2%

Potassium sorbate - 0.1%
sodium benzoate - 0.2%

Fragrance - 0.8%

You have 5 humectants, why? Is it for marketing? If so, put them at 0.1% and choose 1-2 to be the main ones. Glycerin and Sodium Lactate for example. 

I believe you have way too much Triethanolamine to neutralize the Carbomer. 
The ratio is 1.0-1.5 : 1.0 - TEA : Carbomer. Keep in mind you cannot adjust the final pH anymore. Also, as mentioned, the sodium lactate is most likely making the carbomer useless. 
Better pick some other rheology modifier to make it easier for you. Xanthan Gum is perfect choice. Natural, easy to slurry with all those humectants, bang bang boom.

Ok, oil phase. 
IPM should stand for isopropyl myristate. Is it doubled then? 
Stearic acid is an anionic emulsifier. Has a strong charge (also affected by Sodium lactate as it’s an electrolyte), so you might want to re-think that and use higher portion of non-ionic high HLB waxy BLEND emulsifier. 
Glyceryl monostearate is low HLB emulsifier - preferably suits W/O emulsion. Or it can help with rubbing time and viscosity, however as you are using Dimethicone, that won’t be your issue. You can get rid of it. 
So looking over the formula, you have one anionic emulsifier, one W/O emulsifier and a bit of thickener/co-emulsifier. That is why people didn’t like it. 
The W/O emulsifier would most likely destabilize you formula. 

The 0.8% fragrance is making me dizzy Typical fragrances input for facial product is 0.2%. For me, sometimes even 0.1% is too much. That’s where, most likely, the irritation comes from.

!!!!! Also, those preservatives can be also irritating. And they work ONLY in lower pH. According to your TEA input, I’m pretty sure you have not reached this and bang, you have contamination/microbial growth!!! . Use some Euxyl PE 9010 or similar. !!!!!

Ok, I think I’m done  

The TEA saponifies the Stearic acid to make it a real emulsifier.

[lwere]

Graillotion said:

lwere said:

Graillotion said:

Viscosity and water inclusion rate…have little relevance. I’ve only ever seen that discussed on mommy blogger sites.

It is all about the thickeners. 

I can make something that looks like a solid…with 99.2% water.  Hehehe…just experiment with polymeric emulsifiers.

Mommy blogger sites…🙃. 

So then I need help with that. What % of the thickeners should I use for my particular formula?

This is where trial and error comes in….Just keep remaking the formula, reducing your thickeners each time…until it is too thin….then bump them back up.  (Start with the stearic).

Thickeners will always be formula specific….so the correct answer will be the one I always get from my mentor….’DEPENDS’…    There is no set format.  Just what works.

Aloha.

Thanks. Very helpful. 

[lwere]

PhilGeis said:

The organic acids you’re using are pretty poor by themselves..

Thanks, PhilGeis. Care to be more specific?

[lwere]

Abdullah said:

Have you purchased or used phenoxyethanol? 
It is one of the least expensive and mildest preservatives. Is is milder than benzyl alcohol, sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate. 

With xanthan gum you don’t need tea.

Is this product for sale or your own use? 
You can use Paraben. It is non irritant or the year 2019 preservative. I think most people don’t care about it as big companies like Cerave is using it.

Thanks.

Yes, I have phenoxyethanol, hence the feedback on reaction. In my country it is a lot more expensive than the ones I’m using. Parabens have been demonized here…it is the one thing they look out for.

The product is for sale.

[lwere]

Graillotion said:

Viscosity and water inclusion rate…have little relevance. I’ve only ever seen that discussed on mommy blogger sites.

It is all about the thickeners. 

I can make something that looks like a solid…with 99.2% water.  Hehehe…just experiment with polymeric emulsifiers.

Mommy blogger sites…🙃. 

So then I need help with that. What % of the thickeners should I use for my particular formula?

[lwere]

Why does the lotion not flow despite the high water amount? It takes on the consistency of a cream and is therefore difficult to get out of the bottle. 

[lwere]

Paprik said:

Ok, first let me organize the formula  

water 78.45%
Carbomer - 0.05%
Triethanolamine - 0.5%
glycerine - 2.5%
sorbitol - 1%
sodium lactate - 2.5%
butylene glycol - 1%
propylene glycol - 0.8%
DiSodium EDTA - 0.25%

mineral oil - 4%
dimethicone - 1%
IPM - 1%
isopropyl myristate - 1%

petroleum jelly - 0.5%
Cera microcrystallina- 0.5%

Stearic acid - 2%
cetearyl alcohol - 1%
Glyceryl monostearate - 2%

Potassium sorbate - 0.1%
sodium benzoate - 0.2%

Fragrance - 0.8%

You have 5 humectants, why? Is it for marketing? If so, put them at 0.1% and choose 1-2 to be the main ones. Glycerin and Sodium Lactate for example. 

I believe you have way too much Triethanolamine to neutralize the Carbomer. 
The ratio is 1.0-1.5 : 1.0 - TEA : Carbomer. Keep in mind you cannot adjust the final pH anymore. Also, as mentioned, the sodium lactate is most likely making the carbomer useless. 
Better pick some other rheology modifier to make it easier for you. Xanthan Gum is perfect choice. Natural, easy to slurry with all those humectants, bang bang boom.

Ok, oil phase. 
IPM should stand for isopropyl myristate. Is it doubled then? 
Stearic acid is an anionic emulsifier. Has a strong charge (also affected by Sodium lactate as it’s an electrolyte), so you might want to re-think that and use higher portion of non-ionic high HLB waxy BLEND emulsifier. 
Glyceryl monostearate is low HLB emulsifier - preferably suits W/O emulsion. Or it can help with rubbing time and viscosity, however as you are using Dimethicone, that won’t be your issue. You can get rid of it. 
So looking over the formula, you have one anionic emulsifier, one W/O emulsifier and a bit of thickener/co-emulsifier. That is why people didn’t like it. 
The W/O emulsifier would most likely destabilize you formula. 

The 0.8% fragrance is making me dizzy Typical fragrances input for facial product is 0.2%. For me, sometimes even 0.1% is too much. That’s where, most likely, the irritation comes from.

!!!!! Also, those preservatives can be also irritating. And they work ONLY in lower pH. According to your TEA input, I’m pretty sure you have not reached this and bang, you have contamination/microbial growth!!! . Use some Euxyl PE 9010 or similar. !!!!!

Ok, I think I’m done  

Thanks for this very comprehensive and useful response. Lots for me to consider.

I will consider the xanthan gum…would using it as a substitute get rid of the necessity of using the TEA?

On the preservative, I’m avoiding formaldehyde releasers and parabens. The phenoxyethanol, apart from the expense, seems to be a sensitizer for our skin. So is benzyl alcohol, which triggers eczema in our family. I’m trying hurdle technology in view of the rather numerous preference and sensitization issues.

On fragrance…my users were unhappy with my initial 0.5% so I increased the amount. Fancy that.

[lwere]

Abdullah said:

What is the pH?
Which viscosity dimethicone?

As Graillotion said, use a proper emulsifier and remove carbomer if you want to use sodium lactate. Use xanthan gum instead.

Use a proper preservative

Reduce the fragrance to 0.1%

Maybe reduce EDTA too a bit

Thanks for your response. I used Dimethicone 350.
What emulsifier would you switch out the GMS and CSA for?

[lwere]

Graillotion said:

You can drop the carbomer, as the sodium lactate will probably negate that, and it won’t do anything at that rate.  You need a more functional/robust emulsification program.

Thanks. Will dropping the Carbomer make the emulsion less stable? Is this with respect to the temporary curdling or with respect to removing a now unnecessary ingredient?

The addition of the sodium lactate was to create a feel that is better than just glycerine. Would keeping the Carbomer and dropping the sodium lactate and using 5% glycerine make for a more stable emulsion?

I normally make the lotion without the sodium lactate or sorbitol or butylene glycol and it turns out okay. I found that this particular formulation dried faster and seemed less greasy and didn’t make users sweat, even in humid areas.

Any ideas on which of these 3 ingredients could be slightly sensitizing?

What would you suggest for a more robust emulsification system?

[lwere]

😀 Sure. Here goes:
water 78.45%
mineral oil - 4%
Stearic acid - 2%
cetearyl alcohol - 1%
glycerine - 2.5%
sodium lactate - 2.5%
butylene glycol - 1%
propylene glycol - 0.8%

Glyceryl monostearate - 2%

IPM - 1%
Triethanolamine - 0.5%

sorbitol - 1%
dimethicone - 1%

isopropyl myristate - 1%

petroleum jelly - 0.5%

Cera microcrystallina- 0.5%

DiSodium EDTA - 0.25%

Carbomer - 0.05%
Potassium sorbate - 0.1%
sodium benzoate - 0.2%

Fragrance - 0.8%