[letsalcido]

If you’re using powdered Titanium dioxide try switching to a pre-dispersed solution.

Also consider small amounts of iron oxide to counteract the whitecast. I just recently came across a product that was a pure mineral sunscreen by a large brand that was doing just that. It seemed reasonable to me.

Not a seasoned professional here but most sunscreens I’ve seen use more than 20% active, you may need to up the sunscreens in your formula. But take this with a grain of salt, just speaking from observation.

[letsalcido]

@ZivBA does it need to be foaming?

You could simply use some very high molecular PEG, it will be slippery! If in the US people buy JLube to make homemade bubble liquid, it’s just PEG (not sure the number) and a filler, and it was originally intended for veterinarian use during birth but they claim it can be used as soap by mixing in salt.

this sounds like a cheap and non irritating way to make sliding “soap”. it will also stay on the body and stay slippery when rehydrated.

[letsalcido]

Gotta be careful with wording because of the misunderstandings that can come with it. You don’t add more sodium PCA, you will still add 2.5% of your total weight of actual sodium PCA.

Here’s a good read on calculating dilutions: http://dilutions.quansysbio.com/dilutions-explanations-and-examples/

For most basic formulas you’re concerned with C1V1 = C2V2

However, for cosmetic formulations we do everything by weight (not by volume) so you just need to replace V (volume) with W (weight).

[letsalcido]

You may want to post actual percentages for your lotion @Melcas so somebody can help with your question about using the stick blender to incorporate the arrow root powder.

Curious, what is ROE?

Sodium Benzoate is normally paired with Potassium Sorbate, and both work best in acidic environments (3.5-4 pH). Higher pH yields only a small percentage of activity and would not be sufficient to preserve your lotion. Since you have a tea and a hydrosol you’ll want some good, proven preservative like Germall Plus or Phenonip.

[letsalcido]

My opinion on those:

1. The cloudiness due to superfatting probably would have been apparent even before adding the solubilizer, but may as well try 0% superfat.
2. Consider PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate instead of PEG-150 Distearate as is easier to work with and also a good thickener.

3. Could try Polysorbate 20 alone too. That and PEG-40 HCO are benchmark solubilizers. You’ll notice that more moles of ethylene oxide on an oil makes them more water soluble.
4. PEG-25 HCO may have a lower melting temperature but won’t behave the same way. I suspect it’s used more often to emulsify heavier oils. Here’s a good reference I found https://www.ulprospector.com/documents/1599881.pdf?bs=29781&b=1462555&st=1&sl=90656870&crit=UEVHLTI1IEh5ZHJvZ2VuYXRlZCBDYXN0b3IgT2ls&r=na&ind=personalcare doesn’t hurt to try.
5. Your soap should be less than your oils because of the glycerine produced. But yes, diluting a bit further would be good to try. Maybe 1:4 saponified oil to water instead of 1:3.

[letsalcido]

@David08848 yes, even though not all listings mention it’s ethoxylated, the fact that it’s a PEG compound means they all are.

I hope you can figure out what’s causing the cloudiness with your soap!

[letsalcido]

@David08848 let’s see if other people here have knowledge of which one is the correct one. My room is also around 70. 

https://www.makingcosmetics.com/PEG-40-Hydrogenated-Castor-Oil_p_123.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/263037221124 <- can’t trust ebay too much though, but it’s consistent with my experience

I bought this one https://www.makeyourown.buzz/peg-40-hydrogenated-castor-oil/

A quick search on ulprospector shows that it’s liquid from this manufacturer: https://www.ulprospector.com/en/na/PersonalCare/Detail/29781/1462554/Hydrogenated-Castor-Oil-Ethoxylates—PEG-40-HCO?st=1&sl=90637683&crit=UEVHLTQwIEh5ZHJvZ2VuYXRlZCBDYXN0b3IgT2ls&ss=2

[letsalcido]

@Pharma agree with all that. I think for the most part we can all assume that a bioactive compound will be easier to absorb/utilize vs one that needs an enzyme to “activate” it like MAP or SAP. 

For a qualitative analysis like that on skin texture and color improvement, considering that cosmetic formulas are percent by weight, I think comparing effectiveness of a given percentage of two compounds is sufficient. After all you just want to know if a consumer will see the same or similar results with either one of the compounds (or if you need more of less of one to achieve the same). The study I read was in vivo, and qualitative. From an academic standpoint, I know it doesn’t mean much in terms of the pharmacokinetics of each form of AA.

[letsalcido]

@David08848 it’s interesting that you mention your PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil is a paste. I would double check with your supplier because it may actually be PEG-20 Hydrogenated Castor Oil which is a paste at room temperature for what I have seen.

I did find online a brand that was selling a 2.2lbs bucket of PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor oil (main label) but when I read the INCI name in the back it said it was the PEG-20 version. For what I have seen (and what I have with me) PEG-40 will be an off-white or yellow honey-like liquid (not as crystal clear, but translucent), theirs was a paste.

Either way, both should work as solubilizers, just the PEG-20 would be less soluble in water and probably have a different efficiency. 

Polysorbate 20 works great too, not sure if it’s necessary to mix. But I did notice with a formulation I was making that adding polysorbate 20 thinned out my gel a bit.

For thickness you could try PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate (sold by Lotion Crafter, Making Cosmetics, and others as some name with the suffix DOE, it’s a 10% active solution with 10% Methyl Gluceth-10 (humectant)). This is a liquid and easier to work with than PEG-150 Distearate which requires heating and in my experience took a bit to dissolve. Also some people here claimed it can make your formulation susceptible to temperature, turning like jelly at cold temperatures and water thin when warmer. I made a serum with it, threw it in the fridge and I didn’t observe any gelling, but your mileage may vary.

[letsalcido]

@MamaKui not sure if it would be more cost effective than importing CRODA’s product, but you could treat the water with UV light and heating (some reads here https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263116606_Inactivation_of_bacterial_spores_by_UV-C_light) 

Otherwise, you may be better off buying it if you don’t already have the right equipment for the batch sizes you need.

[letsalcido]

@Graillotion Since you’re not too far from the right consistency, you could just up the cetyl esters by 1% and Xanthan by another 0.4%, even a bit more of the Glyceryl (and) PEG-100 Stearate. Just upping any or all of these three should provide more thickness but different skin feels.

To  avoid the lotion feeling slimy due to too much Xanthan Gum, maybe upping cetyl esters and 165 would be the better choice.

[letsalcido]

Better is relative, right?

Since L-Ascorbic Acid is super unstable, one could say Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate is better because it will remain viable for longer in a product. It’s also less irritant/stings less, and you can use a lower percentage because it won’t readily oxidize.

From a visible results standpoint, not sure. I read a paper somewhere that claimed 10% MAP and 10% SAP had similar results to L-Ascorbic Acid, without the stability issues. So maybe not better in terms of effectiveness (assuming LAA hasn’t oxidized in a product).

Maybe the lab just doesn’t want the headache of working with LAA.

[letsalcido]

Glycerin is “not synthetic”. If from a vegetable source, it’s a byproduct of saponification and probably less synthetic than whatever emulsifiers and fatty alcohols you’re using. Fatty acids need further reactions to get to emulsifiers or alcohols. 

I get a feeling that by synthetic you really mean silicone and petroleum derivates. And perhaps no ethoxylated compounds or PEGs? This is what I see most “natural” brands avoid.

Anyway, most people I have talked to that are into skincare like CeraVe. It does have a nice light skin feel. 

[letsalcido]

@Pharma that was my understanding as well. For DIYers it seems pretty difficult to know which one you’re getting exactly, but I don’t think it would make much difference in most formulations?

[letsalcido]

@melrobinson2000 There is a luxury brand I like and their hand wash is $40 for 500ml. It’s just SLES and Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine with 3-4 essential oils and a PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil.

If you wanna sell this wash, using the above as a reference you could get $4 on the dollar if you can get it to sell for that much (they’re probably getting 30-40 on the dollar)… but it sounds a bit hard unless you already have a strong position in a market. 

[letsalcido]

@David08848 I think you may be going down a rabbit hole here. Belassi is making some good points that may not be super clear. I’ll try ro expand:

1) Fatty acids are not triglycerides, the first would be industrially refined and no longer attached to the glycerine backbone. So you would be able to buy high purity, reliable material. Some coconut and palm derived fatty acids: Stearic, Lauric, Capric and Caprylic Acids. This way you can avoid those that can’t solubilize at room temperature in their potassium salt form. However, if going this route you may be better off formulating a detergent-based wash. You can select for eco-cert options which are all naturally derived (but you’re already using PEGs so eco certification is out of the picture). If you decide to stick to true soap, you may need to live with the variability. Look at Dr. Bronner’s. They claim that their soap clouds at 70F, people may be ok with that. They’re also using basically all coconut oil. I threw a bottle in the fridge and it turned cloudy.

2) The above means that by using vegetable oils you have a mostly unknown mixture of fatty acids (now carboxylates in water after saponification). Depending on the crops/harvest the oils may have different compositions so your results can vary from batch to batch. Kinda like wine, each vintage is different even if the bottle has the same name.

3) Last but most importantly. Since the cloudiness seems related to temperature, I would be more inclined to think, like Belassi mentions, that it is some of the soap precipitating out of the solution. Do a test and dilute unscented soap 5:1, 4:1, 3:1 and add the solubilizer and oils (50g to 100g samples should suffice) . If they stay clear, it’s most likely the soap. The addition of the scent or the PEG-40 HCO is shifting down the solubility of at least one of the soaps, assuming the non scented version is completely clear at the same temperature. If you added the PEG-40 HCO and oil and it immediately turned cloudy, then it would be a matter of upping the solubiliser. Here it looks perfectly clear when warm. You also don’t need to warm your soap to add the scent and solubilizer mix. It basically emulsifies the oil into water, and emulsions are more stable at lower temperatures. Heating simply facilitates bond-breaking (increases solubility). In the case of liquid soap, heating promotes the release of the potassium ion from the carboxylates.

I’m going out on a limb here but if adding the same amount of solubilizer without any of the fragrance also causes cloudiness it’s probably because there isn’t enough free water to bond to the soap molecules anymore, as other compounds are more readily hydrogen bonding. 

This would be easy to fix, simply dilute your soap a bit more (5-10% more water maybe) and add more Crothix if you want to achieve the same consistency (it may not thin out too much). PEG-40 HCO is a foam enhancer so you may not see much change in foaming after dilution, as long as there isn’t excessive essential oil. 

[letsalcido]

@Cafe33 I’m curious why would you add both to your formula?

If only used as emollients my understanding is that there is practically no difference in skin feel. Only in certain formulations the difference in carbon chain lengths may affect the final product.

I’m curious because I bought some supposed Caprylic/Capric Triglycerides from an online wholesaler and when I got them it was labeled as fractionated coconut oil. It doesn’t make a difference to me, but upon asking I did not get a clarification of which of the two it actually was. If you’re a professional you can probably trust the source if directly from the manufacturer, otherwise you may just be adding two of the same.

[letsalcido]

@crillz the company should be able to provide documentation on the composition of each supplier. You can use that to understand what changed and adjust your formula accordingly.

Here in the US they make an SDS sheet available, and it will show the percent active range and other components.

[letsalcido]

These people did it with HEC https://www.ahal.mx/collections/antibacterial/products/gel-antibacterial

Although I don’t know if the ingredient lists are accurate because I saw a serum (mix of oils only) with Ascorbic Acid listed as ingredient… Either it’s just precipitated at the bottom of the bottle or they’re using Ascorbyl Palmitate or another liposoluble vitamin C…

So take it with a grain of salt.

[letsalcido]

Thank you everyone for your input!

@EVchem CAPB has been the common variable, I think that’s probably where this is headed. At any rate, I am now convinced that you just can’t achieve the same sensorial profile without PEGs. The products I like the most and was using as benchmark all had PEGs. 

@ozg the formula with the soap was after several failures with other surfactants. I added the soap because it’s anionic and I could thicken it more easily. I didn’t know about the stability of the soaps. Thanks for pointing that out. I have seen a few “natural“ direct to consumer brands selling gel washes and shampoos where they use soaps as their only anionic. I’m guessing the stability issue is a more long-term one? If the product stays stable for at least 3-6months I’m guessing that’s fine for a brand that doesn’t have product sitting on the shelves.

Also, the pH 6 is from paper strips. I just bought a pH meter since I think the strips are more unreliable than I had originally thought!

[letsalcido]

@EVchem thanks for the reply! This is a formula of a body wash I just made and it also had issues with Xanthan Gum.

I know other compounds can have charges, but I explained my (perhaps wrong) reasoning for not choosing anionic surfactants for my face wash. I don’t expect all anionic compounds to be stripping.

I don’t have the face wash formula handy but this body wash I threw together also had issues (I went with a mostly “natural” formula:

Castile soap - 40% (very rough calculations 8% active total)

Coco Glucoside - 10% (5% active)
CAPB - 20% (7% active)
Glycerin - 4%

Xanthan Gum - 0.3%
Phenoxyethanol - 0.5%
Eukyl 900 - 0.5%

Essential oils - 0.6% (tangerine, mandarin, grapefruit and a bit of geranium, so it doesn’t smell strong since it’s mostly citrus)
PEG-40 HCO - 2.5%
Water Q.S.

For this formula I slurried the xanthan with the glycerin and added to the final product. The consistency was good before the thickener, but I like more viscosity so I can pour it onto my hand and won’t drip. 

Before anyone asks how I calculated the active in my liquid soap: 1kg of Olive and Coconut oil in a final 5kg batch. I know there are unsaponifiables, and I did use excess POH. Now that I think about it a 20% active is generous primarily because of the glycerine produced, so that is for sure not in the calculation but may only account for 2-3% removed from that 20%? I’m not trying to make a commercial formula with this though, I’m happy if I can replicate it.

The pH of my different experiments has been ~6. 

Just noticed, I’m not using Hydroxypropylcellulose, I’m use Hydroxyethylcellulose. Although not in the recipe I listed here, so I’m happy to just focus on Xanthan Gum. The issue was present with both.

@Belassi It’s been incredibly hard finding free resources of technical data or theory about this kind of information. Maybe I’m not looking in the right places, but I have a science background and would much rather learn the hard chemistry behind this all so I don’t make “bad” choices. So far, however, it all seems more empirical to me. What I understand so far:

- anionic surfactants are used for their cleansing
- amphoterics for mildness, foam boosting and making anionics milder, and thickening anionic systems
- cationics for conditioning effect due to adhering to skin and hair by electrostatic forces.
- nonionic milder cleansers, less stripping. Compatible with any of the above. 

I read CMEA is an older option to cocamidopropyl betain and hydroxysultaine. What are your opinions on these three, which one is better performing?

As for PEG-150 distearate, I have some coming to me and will try it if everything else fails. But I mostly wanted to replicate a Parsley Seed antioxidat face serum I really like that uses it for thickening. It costs $75USD for 100ml, so I’m better of making it myself. (Ingredients: Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Water (Aqua), Polysorbate 80, Sorbitol, PEG-150 Distearate, Polysorbate 20, Benzyl Alcohol, Phenoxyethanol, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Oil, Panthenol, Disodium EDTA, Citric Acid, Sodium Citrate, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Dehydroacetic Acid, Ormenis Multicaulis Oil, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Carum Petroselinum (Parsley) Seed Oil, Linalool, Limonene, Geraniol

 ). 

But I digress, I’m trying to see what I can achieve with the least amount of PEGs as possible given the bad rep they are getting. While I’m currently experimenting for my own use I may consider commercializing my formulas in the future, so might as well keep that in mind. 

[letsalcido]

Thank you, glad to be back!

I think I remember the name of the effect, it’s the Tyndall effect if I’m not wrong.

Yes they do recommend mixing your oils with PEG-40 HCO before incorporating into the product, but I’ve achieved completely clear gel washes by adding that or Tween 20 after I added the oils and it turned very opaque.

I’m sure you can probably use less solubiliser if you mix the oils with it before hand. 

[letsalcido]

Short answer is, those don’t need heating

But a full formula may be more helpful

[letsalcido]

It will all depend on your ingredients! Do you have a formula? 

There’s a serum I love from a well known Australian luxury brand that uses PEG-150 Distearate to thicken the serum and that certainly needs heating up for what I’ve read.

[letsalcido]

Thanks for the reply @Belassi

I certainly have a lot to learn, they don’t teach this stuff in a biochemistry program.

My understanding is that anionics in general tend to be much better cleansers and degreasers, which can be bad for a person with oily or combination facial skin. Perhaps they don’t all cause irritation like SLS, but they could strip too much of the natural skin barrier for a person prone to acne. Is this wrong or somewhat correct?

I’m here to learn to the professionals and open to learn about your preferred ingredients. I also have SLSa, and getting a sample to play with of Olivem 300, PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate (probably very similar to Olivem 300 I would assume). 

Any input on the issue I’m having with the thickeners?