[letsalcido]

@ngarayeva001 that changes everything! Do you have links to those studies?

I’ve been trying to formulate a shampoo for myself with salicylic acid, and if proven effective in salicylate form it would make this so much easier.

[letsalcido]

You can use Stearic Acid and/or Myristic Acid to increase bulk in a cheap way without affecting foaming or cleansing.

[letsalcido]

Salicylic acid is most effective between ph 3 and 4. The free acid can penetrate skin better for best results.

By adding sodium hydroxide you’re creating sodium salicylate which won’t be able to penetrate, but is definitely more water soluble.

if you care about performance you may want to avoid NaOH altogether and just use a higher percentage of polyols in the formula. You want the free acid available as much as possible for maximum effect.

But let’s see what others say here. 

[letsalcido]

@LuisJavier I made a lotion with 5% glycerin and it’s everything but sticky, it’s actually incredibly silky and quick absorbing. Probably dimethicone is counteracting the potential stickiness. Also looked at some big brand names and I extrapolated concentrations of about 3-5% from their ingredient list. Some lotions and creams I encountered had glycerin as their 3 rd or 4th ingredient.

Point is, glycerine alone is definitely sticky. I guess to your point,  it’s very formulation dependent and maybe 3-5% can be sticky in general. I just haven’t had that experience, and it also hasn’t been part of the feedback I’ve got.

[letsalcido]

@ngarayeva001 agreed with all you said! But at less than 5% glycerine, it is likely not going to make much of a difference in terms of the feel of a lotion, but it will certainly reduce production costs.

[letsalcido]

@Pharma agreed, my train of thought exactly.

Thanks for the input!

[letsalcido]

Is there a reason why you chose propanediol? It’s much more expensive than glycerin and both are used (in your case) as humectants, basically they do the same job. I would go with glycerin instead.

Also, 10% is way too much. It has an affect on the viscosity of your emulsion (don’t remember if this one thickens and propylene glycol thins, but they have the same formula just a different arrangement of the atoms).

I would use between 1-5% in a lotion, just like with glycerin. And I wouldn’t use both, one or the other.

[letsalcido]

So what is the remaining 20% in your formula? Just water? 

Is it possible that you’re using too much glycerin?

You won’t be able to get good help if you don’t provide all the information.

I don’t have experience with Maxxthixx PC-10 but it’s the only ingredient in your (incomplete) formula that could potentially make it sticky. You don’t want to add unnecessary ingredients that can potentially affect the virucidal and bactericidal effectiveness of your formulation. So you may just need to live with it, or switch polymers if you want an effective formulation.

Polymers naturally form films when they dry, choosing one that can be used at smaller percentage will reduce the negative skin feel.

[letsalcido]

Less Maxxthix PC-10 or switch polymers. Unless there’s more to your formula you’re not sharing?

[letsalcido]

@Pharma thanks for the input. I mentioned pharmacology for the lack of knowledge of a better word. I figured pharmacology is concerned since this is labeled as an active drug ingredient in antiseptic solutions for treating wounds.

It does make sense that it may not be concerned about this compound as it’s mechanism of action is not similar to, let’s say, an enzyme inhibitor (like triclosan) that targets a specific pathway nor is it consumed.

This is interesting though, I would assume (perhaps erroneously) that like any other denaturants (alcohol, heat…), it’s not as easy to develop resistance to them. So, this and similar compounds are a better alternative for disinfecting solutions than other compounds with affinities to a specific binding site.

@Belassi I was doing some research and found this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88911/, it seems like the bromide salt is preferred over chloride as biocide. It also mentions some of these QAC don’t destabilize the membrane enough on their own to cause cell lysis, so the solution needs to be hypotonic. Of course, with addition of other detergents in your formulation it may be enough. 

I can’t seem to find any research on cetrimonium chloride’s biocidal activity or concentrations used for that effect.

[letsalcido]

Can you provide more details?
- what else is in it?
- pH
- method used to emulsify
- is this kept refrigerated?
- type of oil
- type of lecithin
- how long before it separated?

Maybe this can help others come up with better ideas. Researching lecithin (for cosmetics) I found that it requires high shear emulsification. 

[letsalcido]

@Amira the science behind high protein and low protein hair: peroxides, bleach etc can definitely denature proteins and I would not be surprised if some were actually lost during certain cosmetic procedures causing hair to be more or less porous. That I believe. 

What I do not believe is that proteins in a shampoo or conditioner is causing adverse effects (or any effect for that matter) on hair. The reason why information is hard to find and is confusing or contradictory even, is probably due to lacking a solid scientific foundation.

As a hypothetical example: someone that has done market research may notice that people that claim to have “low protein hair” complain from dryness, breakage, and frizz. Knowing this, you formulate products with slightly more conditioning agents (butters, oils, quats, silicone) to mask their issues and add just enough protein to make a marketing claim. But you know what is actually doing the job is not the protein. 

As a formulator your job is to understand what the real issue is behind what people observe, then find a way to mask it with the right ingredients. Also go with the flow and trends if you really want to sell your product, give the people what they want (add protein, remove protein etc). 

[letsalcido]

@MurtazaHakim Yes, there are many surfactants from each of those groups. I have only been able to source from the repacker market those that I already listed, which are all suitable (and actually widely used) for skin cleansers. Some of the links I provided are actually the equivalent of the BASF Plantaren series (decyl, coco, and lauryl glucosides) but they’re from a repacker, so they don’t use the commercial name, and of course we don’t know if they got them from BASF or another company.

Why is the requirement to use those types of compounds? Perhaps you’re reading this and trying to replicate a formulation from a patent?

As for your question if “ Alkylamine Oxide, Dialkyl amine Oxide and Alkyl dimethylamine Oxide” are the same  yes and no:

From wikipedia an amine oxide:

Consider the following:
Lauryl (dimethyl)amine oxide (aka lauramine oxide)
cocamidopropyl (dinethyl)amine oxide (this is most specifically a dimethyl amidopropyl amine oxide)
decyl (dimethyl)amine oxide

Alkylamine Oxide is the most generic group, any or all of the 3 (R1-3) moieties can be any alkyl to be named this. 

Dialkyl amine oxide is probably used to refer to any tertiary amine oxide where two of the alkyl groups are the same. So this one is a bit more specific than the above.

Alkyl dimethyl amine oxide is the most specific, it means at least 2 of the 3 alkyl groups are a single carbon (methyl). 

All alkyl dimethyl amine oxides are dialkyl amine oxides, and all dialkyl amine oxides are alkyl amine oxides. But the opposite is NOT true.

That was the long answer. The short answer in cosmetics sounds to me that yes, they’re basically the same. Most of these amine oxide surfactants have two methyl groups and only one longer chain alkyl or amidopropyl group and they’re amphoteric.

[letsalcido]

@Perry I gathered from OPs post that they already know how to use raw materials and formulate products but are looking to learn to manufacture the “raw ingredients” themselves (i.e. ethoxylate oils, purify fatty acids from raw coconut/palm oil, turn those into alcohols and surfactants…). Maybe I misunderstood.

[letsalcido]

I had the same thought! Not for making a commercial product but for a surface cleaner/degreaser (e.g. formula 409) for my own household.

The molecules are quite different however. 

Cetrimonium:

Benzalkonium:

I get the sense that the benzene ring may play a role or increase the membrane destabilizing/denaturing effect so less of it is needed. Therefore a higher concentration of cetrimonium chloride would be sufficient, but then it increases the risk of irritation or other adverse effects. If you have the means to test efficacy and compare (even if on a rudimentary way) I would love to hear what you find.

Maybe someone with a strong pharmacology background has an explanation why many biologically active ingredients have a benzene ring or are cyclic, and if this could play a role in why benzalkonium is more potent than cetrimonium.

[letsalcido]

Some places sell oil soluble aloe vera extract  in sunflower oil. It’s not pure aloe vera oil (I believe the plant itself doesn’t really produce any). 

https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/FSS-Aloe-Vera-Oil-Extract-SBO-p/fss10974.htm not the only one, but to show you that it is available. Probably provides no benefits at all, but an option to use as a claim ingredient in anhydrous formulations.

[letsalcido]

I don’t know of any ecocert/organic options that could work. You could use a little bit of fractionated coconut oil and a solubilizer (maybe) but the amount you could incorporate would be very small to make a difference. Also, oils would reduce foam which is important in your case… maybe someone has some options. 

[letsalcido]

Like africanbug said, you won’t be able to replicate what a lotion does with a handwash. But you can counteract the stripping effects of detergents by using refattening or conditioning agents.

For humectants you won’t find a better one than glycerin or propylene glycol (may thin the product) for washes. Hyaluronic acid is expensive and most of it (if not all) will go down the drain anyway. 

To increase the “moisturizing” effect, you can use 1-2% of PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate or PEG-7 Olive Esters as refattener on top of the glycerine to replace the function of some of the natural oils taken away by the detergent.

You can also use Polyquaternium-7, it helps leave the hands feeling smooth (not really a moisturizer but helps with how the skin feels). This is a cationic surfactant that relies on electrostatic forces to stick to the skin (effect is immediate). So this one is more likely to remain on the skin. You don’t need much of this, like .5% maybe. It will give your skin some “slip”.

[letsalcido]

I’m not an expert by any means. This sounds to me like something not based on science but rather common talk based on anecdotal experience or marketing.

There’s been plenty of talks here about the use of proteins and amino acids in cosmetics and whether they “work”. Consensus is that they don’t, specially on rinse-off products. They’ll simply wash away (among other reasons). Chances are what people are experiencing is either a shampoo that is too stripping, or one that is leaving too much residue.

Here’s a decent article I just found https://medium.com/@beautytmr/the-chemical-properties-of-hair-955985908d05 you’ll see it’s mostly sebum that makes the hair shine, smooth and more maleable. Lack thereof makes it brittle, etc. Conditioners (the ingredients) mimic the role of sebum. So you can formulate shampoos that are more stripping for people with oily scalps, and less stripping (and with conditioners) for those with dry hair. Add or remove claim ingredients as you see fit for your marketing story.

I’m not a hair expert, but this is just coming from a someone with a general chemical/life science background, and using critical thinking when reading online. It would be interesting to see what others say.

[letsalcido]

@etopedia you can start by getting a Bachelor’s of Science in Chemical Engineering (if you plan to make large amounts) or Chemistry if you don’t have one yet.

Followed up by a Master’s like this one https://www.appliedchem.uw.edu/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwlN32BRCCARIsADZ-J4snsZ8ocnlKyBvLm8ArwNuZTbz6NeZei5oWqdYpbStQBfdIPBrsfiQaAh-cEALw_wcB

The master’s is just a reinforcement because bachelor degrees are amazing foundational tools, but if you want to jump right in and don’t want to first get a job at another company, you’ll want a bit more preparedness that a master’s can provide. Ideally a PhD, if you want to develop new ingredients.

Technically, just having a good grasp of Organic Chemistry would be enough. But if you don’t have any proper scientific education it can be dangerous!

Also, it really depends what kind of materials you would like to make. Some of them require special expensive equipment and care, and doing it in small amounts is cost-prohibiting.

You can make soap and extract glycerine at home if you’d like! That one is “easy” compared to other ingredients, and there’s some videos on youtube. You’ll quickly realize that it’s probably better (and cheaper) to just purchase it.

[letsalcido]

@PeaceLoveNaturals if you’re referring to the DIY market, yes. I see oily concoctions everywhere!

In comercial products I see more cationic surfactants, PEG oils and silicones. Not much is needed of either or you’ll end up with heavy, greasy hair with a lot of build up if a strong shampoo is not used. 

I don’t have experience making conditioner, so I’ll leave that up to the experts. But I think for fine hair the last thing you’d want is something heavy that takes away volume. That basically removes all oils and butters from the equation in my opinion. They’re too heavy. Maybe 1-2% total of “light” oils like  Argan, Jojoba, Castor is fine. I have thinning hair and can’t even use a comercial conditioner because it exacerbates my hair loss, my hair becomes too heavy and looses all volume. I also have oily scalp, so the last thing I want is more oil on my hair products.

[letsalcido]

@getmeraju not a senior, but I get a sense that the issue is the propylene glycol. I observed a thinning effect in a liquid detergent, and I remember reading somewhere that it usually reduces viscosity. Not sure in your system if this will be true. Have you used this same method to thicken other acidic solutions?

[letsalcido]

Go simple, try them separately. Test for stability and choose what works best in your formula.

If you want to also try them combined, go ahead. And test a third prototype. If there is no discernible difference, you’re probably better off having to source one product only instead of two.

[letsalcido]

I just got myself some Lauramine Oxide (lauryldimethylamine oxide) from here https://www.makeyourown.buzz/lauramine-oxide/

As for the polyglucosides, you could get some here https://www.makeyourown.buzz/decyl-glucoside/,
https://www.makeyourown.buzz/coco-glucoside/,
https://www.makeyourown.buzz/lauryl-glucoside-plantaren-1200/,

https://www.makeyourown.buzz/caprylyl-capryl-glucoside/

There’s plenty of other vendors out there. Looking for those names in ULProspector will yield plenty of distributors that carry them outside of the DIY market.

I looked up “polyglucoside” in UP to confirm the glucosides I know of are actually those, even though the molecules I’ve found online show only one glucose moiety per molecule of detergent.

If you don’t have an account with UL Prospector get one. It’s a great resource to find distributors or raw materials and data.

[letsalcido]

There’s CN, CS and CR gases (just looked it up).  Those materials are non-polar/insoluble in water. This makes it hard to creat a protective film against them in my opinion. 

They’re rather reactive when mixed with moisture on the skin, I read somewhere that people reported cleansing with water exacerbated the pain. This supports the idea of using a non-polar solvent to remove it (or just suck it up and use soapy water like the CDC recommends https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/riotcontrol/factsheet.asp)

I’ve seen in videos people pouring milk on those affected, which probably could benefit from the fat in it to wash away the compounds. Just brainstorming here but maybe mineral oil, make up remover or oil cleansers. But you would want to do one pass with a paper towel or something so you don’t just rub the compounds in more. But in reality lots of soapy water seems like the easiest way to avoid repeatedly rubbing it into the skin, unless you have large amounts of a skin friendly non-polar solvent.

The biggest issue is the eyes and mucus membranes. Not much you can do there, just protect them with physical barriers (respirators, googles for the eyes). Rinse eyes with tons of water if affected. 

Long story short, the best cure is prevention. Stay safe, and keep away from riot control.