letsalcido
Forum Replies Created
-
What about a modified cellulose? HEC is used for thickening HCL toilet bowl cleaner, I think it could work?
-
@RickS you didn’t mention which surfactants you are using. Only some of them respond well to electrolyte (salt) thickening.
If you share your formula, you can get more specific advise. -
@Zara to make a clear product you need a solubilizer that yields super small micelles. Polysorbate 20 and PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil are the benchmark and will yield a clear solution at the right proportion with the EOs.
If you can’t achieve a clear product, you’ll need a different solubilizer or a combination of different things, like this one: https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/FSS-SuperSolv-p/fssd30045.htm or this one https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/Poly-Suga-Mulse-D9-p/fssb20016.htm
-
Solubilizers will give you a clear solution. But you’ll have to experiment with different ones (Polysorbate 20, PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil…) and ratios of solubilizer to essential oil, and make sure to first mix the two thoroughly before adding to the rest of the formulation. I would add them at the end too.
-
Glycerin, Propylene Glycol and Sodium Stearate? What kind of face care is this? Cleansing? Moisturizing bar?
-
I don’t think the outcome will be much different, it’s the ease of processing in most cases.
You add amphoterics at the end because they will thicken the formulation and make it more difficult to process, potentially causing too much air to get trapped.
If you’re solubilizing a fragrance or essential oil, it matters that it should be mixed first with your solubilizer.
-
To those that don’t speak Spanish, OP asked: what preservative should I use for an anhydrous product made with shea butter and apricot kernel oil?
@Econatural deberías poner la traducción en inglés para que otros entiendan. Aunque sea de google translate.
Probablemente no necesitas un conservador, sino un antioxidante. A menos de que el producto se vaya a mojar y permanecer así.
My answer: you probably only need an antioxidant unless it’s a formula that will get and remain wet. -
Think of neutralizing that acid as a « saponification ».
Like stearic acid with NaOH. You could technically get stearic acid to dissociate, but it will only be a small amount. If you saponify it, it will dissociate at 100%, and will have completely different properties.I am guessing it’s the same with LABSA. It completely changes it’s properties. After neutralization, it will be 100% ionized (as an anionic surfactant) in water. As an acid, depending on the pH of the formulation, only a percentage will be in its ionic form. It will also behave differently on the skin, likely will be more irritating as an acid (pH 2-4), and will be more reactive.
But all in all, neutralizing it is not just for the pH, it’s a chemical reaction and it will change it’s behavior. -
@Microformulation agreed for cosmetics.
But I’m unsure that applies to professional or medical grade peels where an actual controlled “burn” is desired. Usually these kind of peels will come with very strict after care, and down time.
That being said, if formulating at home or a cosmetic for commercialization, don’t listen to me! ????
-
@Haleemah the peel that actually causes desquamation (100% of the time) about two days after is trichloroacetic acid. I do that every couple months and my skin does fall off in chunks
it is not suitable for darker skin, however, because of high risk of hyperpigmentation from the peel and subsequent UV damage. If you have darker skin, stick to AHAs or Salicylic Acid peels. And consult a dermatologist or esthetician (always) just to make sure you’re skin can handle any of the peels you want to attempt. AHAs normally do not cause visible peeling. It’s more gentle. It’s interesting that you saw that on someone with lactic acid. Usually, that’s not to be expected. There are 20% glycolic acid creams, and I would not expect them to make you peel off.
As for the pH for the peel, I don’t know if it will actually skin you alive to have a lower than 3 pH solution. It likely won’t go below 1.5. And a higher pH will definitely make the peel less “effective”, meaning that the percentage of the acid that is active will be lower, so you may need a 20% solution of lactic acid at pH 3 to match the strength of a 10% solution at pH 1.5. (I didn’t do the actual calculations here, so don’t quote me on this, but you get the idea).
There are peels in the market at pH < 3, as low as 1.5. You have to remember that for these acids to penetrate into the stratum corneum more effectively (and quickly) they need to be in their free acid form. Hence, a lower pH will maintain more of the acid in it’s “active“ form. It is likely the lower the pH the more peeling you could observe (and redness, stinging). It’s a less gentle exfoliation.
On the other hand, with higher pH, a hypothesis is that as some of the free acid is absorbed into deeper layers. So, when the pH of an acid is the same as the pKa, 50% of that acid will be in free form. If we have 10 units, 5 will be free form. If 2 get absorbed, you end up with 8 units left, of which now only 4 are free. The another 2 absorb, then you have 3 free… does this make sense? -
If you post the ingredient list someone may be able to help better.
My guess is that the product is actually an emulsion, and hyaluronic acid is in the water phase in the smallest possible amount for claims. But can’t tell without an ingredient list. Maybe someone else has a better guess.
-
@chemicalmatt thank you for that info. I’ll try HMC and see how that goes!
Didn’t mean to hijack the topic, I thought it could be related. -
@Perry makes absolute sense. The power of marketing is incredible.
I did see recently a couple companies with kickstarters for new cosmetic products. Nothing innovative. One was simple castile soap, in a common aluminum bottle but with some cool abstract animal illustrations. Almost $50k in funding from kickstarter. I was amazed. You just have to find the right marketing story and some “unique” packaging, just as you say. Which makes me think, the cosmetic industry is not for chemists, it’s for marketers. -
@rseguin you can’t have a stable emulsion without the right surfactant. New Wash (a No-Poo) uses strong cationic surfactants (Dicetyldimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine). Lack of foam doesn’t mean there is no surfactants in it.
If you post the ingredient list of the product you like we can tell you why it is stable. Otherwise, all I can say is you likely can’t achieve a stable emulsion with just Cetyl alcohol and Polysorbate 20, and no oil.
-
@chemicalmatt I have not been able to formulate a surfactant with HEC.
At first I noticed I wasn’t letting it hydrate long enough. Then I thought I did (was heating it up to 75C and a couple drops of 10% NaOH, stir for 10min), and in a few occasions adding an amphoteric surfactant would kill the viscosity.
I let it sit overnight once, then added surfactants and it seemed stable, until a couple days latter where my wash separated into two phases. I did adjust the pH to 5.5, so I’m wondering if that can be destabilizing it (in this shampoo as well, being a slightly acidic pH).But then… I’ve read HEC is used to thicken acidic toilet bowl cleaner.
-
@rishabhsoti sure. What I said still stands, that you will not be able to thicken that percentage of anionic surfactant with salt. It’s too low.
Like everyone else says, you’ll need a gum or polymer, but the skin feel won’t be the same.
-
@ngarayeva001 as someone that works in the tech industry (engineer by trade), this is everyday life. Non-technical people that have “the best ideas” are quite abundant and want you to work for free. I would say 1% of them are ideas worth considering.
Back in college I had an experience like this where I did join a group of three other guys. The founder was technical and the idea was solid. It was one electrical engineer (founder), two non-technical (business) and I (software). I decided to part ways for something more stable given my personal situation, but soon after, they got their first couple-hundred-thousand-dollar investment to continue to work on the product.
Again, some are legit ideas… but usually it’s easier to get someone on board when you have something going already, even a prototype and enough market research to support your idea. And all that would need to be included in the pitch to be taken seriously, in my opinion.
-
Does cofounder mean lots of work for no pay?
Why not hire a formulator? pay a fraction of what equity in the company would be worth when you’ve reached your first million in sales and were featured on Vogue magazine, then pocket all of the profits of an industry disrupting idea, instead of giving that away to save some money on the initial R&D costs?
I think that makes more business sense.
-
@Lilyprincess SCI should be fine I think. You’ll have to figure out how much you need by experimentation. But maybe 5-10% is a good start? I’ve never made a scrub like this one before. It will also depend on the skin feel you’re after.
And yes, I would add cetyl alcohol to the lotion.
-
I think targeting a company or product for using a compound that until recently was (seemingly) standard/widely accepted and generally regarded as safe is not the way to go about this.
Here in the US I have several comercial products containing MI and MCI. Some of which are higher-end cosmetics.
Perhaps the efforts should be directed at educating people about these compounds, and the risk to sensitization they pose in some of the population, not turn them against one (of possibly tens of thousands) of the products containing it.
Just my two cents.
-
They are safe in cosmetics. They’re widely used in the healthcare industry as well, and as preservatives in eye drops and antiseptic to treat minor wounds.
There is no compound that kills living organisms and is not toxic. Ethanol, isopropyl alcohol, chlorine… etc. All toxic compounds to different extends, that’s what kills germs! Dose makes the poison.There is a limit on how much of these quaternary ammonium compounds is safe for human use. In cosmetics/topicals I believe you’re looking at around 0.2% concentration but someone else should confirm that.Have a look at the safety data sheet for rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol, or isopropanol). It’s just as scary, but it’s so common in everyone’s lives that we don’t even question it’s safety. My point is, there is no need to avoid sanitizers (or antibacterials) with QACs for health concerns. -
Also, if we could magically dissolve 0.7% of unrefined jojoba oil in water by means other than micelle formation (which turns emulsions white), that amount of oil would not be nearly enough to make the full solution yellow. The oil is not that strongly colored.
-
@Yulin I’ve used MAP (magnesium ascorbyl phosphate) and it’s an off-white powder. Once in solution it turns yellowish.
I have tried other products I bought for testing that were made with SAP and they had similar odor and color characteristics as MAP (looks yellow in solution and smells bready/yeasty), so I’m pretty sure if you make a 5% solution of that powder and nothing else you’ll see it’s yellowish.
-
Do you mean Alpha Olefin Sulfonate by AOS?
Both SLS and AOS should be able to thicken with salt if at high enough concentration.Your powder is roughly:
SLS — 72%AOS — 13%Borax — 2%Salt — 13%10g of that for a total solution of 200g gives you 3.5% SLS, 0.565% AOS and 0.565% Salt.
Your surfactant active matter is very low at a 5% solution of this mix, you probably need to dissolve 20g or 30g to a final 200g solution to see any thickness from salt (10-15% solution of your mix). Otherwise this needs to go in a foaming bottle.
-
There are several things that are not quite right with your formulations.
The scrub:
- First and foremost, I don’t believe it’s possible to make a stable emulsion with 62% salt.
- Your water phase is smaller than your oil phase (~16% water phase vs ~20% oil phase), and you’re using an oil-in-water emulsifier when you should have a water-in-oil one.
- salt dissolves in water, your formula should be anhydrous instead, or some of your salt will be “wasted” by being dissolved in your water phase.
- it feels waxy because you’re using a lot of waxy , heavy fats (shea and mango butter) and the emulsifier.My recommendation for this one is: go simple, and don’t make this any sort of emulsion. Ditch the water phase (xanthan, water, hydrosol…) and the emulsifier (olivem 1000). Then, before making the scrub find a ratio of butters to oils that creates a soft paste (like room temp butter maybe), and see how it feels on your skin (before adding the salt). To make that more rinsable, you’ll want to find a surfactant (think polysorbates, PEGs, etc) that is dispersible in oils. Or you can just omit this part but you’ll have to soap up a lot after using the scrub.
The lotion:
With > 35% oils and butters, I don’t think that lotion will absorb quickly by any means. Specially those you’re using which are very heavy and oily. It’s also likely that it’s not stable, you need as much emulsifier as ~20% of your oils. You have around 10% of your oil phase. I would recommend halving the oils and butters (specially if it’s a lotion) you don’t need that much. Or double the emulsifier if you really want to much oil. And add 5-6% of some combination of stearic acid, cetyl alcohol or cetearyl alcohol. You can play with that and do 2% of stearic acid and 4% cetyl alcohol, for example. That will thickening it up pretty good, without using so much oil.