[komirra]

I was thinking the need to preserve would come from someone possibly introducing water to the product. thanks for suggestions.

when i was thinking of too high i meant like at levels that were more than someone might be able to tell any benefit. OR if perhaps an increase was neccessary for performance or texture reasons. 

[komirra]

@Perry thanks for the advice. I will double the preserative, i actually tend to over preserve anyway. I know it is probably a waste, but I also know my kitchen sanitation is nowhere near what is needed for long lasting perservation.

[komirra]

@Perry well I  don’t sell cosmetics. I just formy late for my personal use. I’m just curious if it would be safe for personal use. Of course I also don’t want to contaminate myself with micros either hahaah. 

[komirra]

@Perry I don’t have access to this type of equipment as a home crafter. didn’t know that microbs could be there that you dont see. i just hate to toss it out lol. i wish making cosmetics sold a few smaller sizes. 

[komirra]

do you have access to behtrimonium chloride? that could be used with CETAC and thickened with a fatty alcohol. this combination works well with my curly hair. Could also consider amodimethicone, I love it and have felt a considerable feeling in softness when i compared a formulation with it and one without it.

[komirra]

I also agree with @Perry about the panthenol, sea kelp extract, and chamille thing. you could probably also skip the glycerin for a rinse out. I used to use ingredients like this, but noticed no real difference when I took them out the formula

[komirra]

I have the same hair texture as you and create deep conditioners for this hair type. I think the amount of oils is too much. 3% total of oils is plenty. I would skip the shea butter and choose babassu or coconut. I have tried MANY conditioner formulas, and have found that shea butter in the conditioner reduces the detangling affect. atleast for myself

I personally like 2% conditioner SD (be sure to reduce the pH to 3- 4 in the water phase) and 2% Betrimonium chloride. 2% betrimonium chloride alone wasn’t enough for me. but try it both ways and see what you like.

@johnb
I have never had a problem with 6% cationics. I have been using a formula for a few months that has this cationic total. I have see no negative effects. personally my hair wasnt getting soft with cationics at lower levels. but I do clarify weekly, so maybe this is why no waxy effect. 

[komirra]

@rettinsr
If you are in the usa, you can order this ingredient from Makingcosmetics.com. This is where i order it from. But I also think it is avaliable at ingredientstodiefor.com , but I have never ordered from this site. 

[komirra]

@Perry would liquid germall plus do a good job at preserving flaxseed gel as well. I ask this because it is also a herbal infusion (flaxseeds boiled in water then strained) Is it safe to use herbal infusions that have a perservative. 

[komirra]

Thanks for answering my question! Great answers

[komirra]

@rettinsr
 I tend to neutralize mine to ~5 pH instead of 3-4, but then again I usually combine it with behtrimonium Chlroide or BTMS-50, so it will keep the emulsion stable. I have really dry hair, so I like SAPDMA at 2% and Behtrimoiun Chloride at 2%,  together. 

[komirra]

Well how much behentrimonium chloride are you using? I have used it and only found it to be irritating at levels higher than 2.5%. So .5- 2.5% I have seen no irritation. 

You could also consider using a different cationic component, such asStearamidopropyl dimethylamine. The pH has to be adjusted but it works. 

I don’t know of any wholesellers that sale BTMS to homecrafters. The closest I have seen is behentrimonium chloride.

perhaps adding a silicone at 2% with the BTMS-50 could help combat the frizzies.

[komirra]

Just wanted to give an update on how my experiment with conditioner SD is going. I finally got pH strips (worked out very well!) thanks @Belassi.

I made a successful prototype formulas that I am still tweaking, but I have used it to good success. I feel the SD made a difference on the initial smoothness of the hair and softness. I have made this formula before without the conditioner SD ( just behrimonium chloride) and I can tell the difference.  In case anyone is curious of my formula

Formula start up

water q.s
conditioner SD 2%
Bethremonium Chloride 2%
hydrolized protein 2%
citric acid ~ p.H 5
ceatyl alcohol 7%
coconut oil 2%
aminodimethicone 1%
CETAC 1%
dimethicone 2% 

[komirra]

thanks I got pH strips to. gonna try the conditioner SD again this weekend.

[komirra]

@Belassi I stayed away from using pH strips because I heard that they can be very inaccurate. Is this true? What brand of pH strips are you using? 
 

[komirra]

OMG @Belassi yes that is exactly what I have been using it for. I never knew that. That makes so much sense. When I was only measuring the pH of shampoos didn’t have this problem.  When I used it for conditioners it started acting up. but now it only reads 4.5 pH for EVERYTHING… even when i know it isn’t.

[komirra]

@Roseann I’ll give a report back when I come up with a formula that I think can work. Ive been playing around with the conditioner SD a little but didn’t like the consistency of the conditioner. its takes more fatty alcohol to thicken that BTMS 50 or BTCL. unfounately my pH meter started acting up too. I’ve been guessing how much citric acid to add to bring the pH down, which i know is a bad idea lol.

[komirra]

There is no oil that will make your hair grow. “growth oils” are just normal oils blends with a marketing strategy that says that it is a growth oil. any oil blend you like for your hair is fine. 

[komirra]

@KMYoungster I just recieved my stearamidopropyl dimethylamine from making cosmetics today. In the the next day or so I will play around with it to see how a batch will turn out. Once I get a good batch and try it ill lt your guys know how it worked out for me! Are you also trying to formulate for dry coarse hair?

[komirra]

ok thanks @johnb I am able to get stearamidopropyl dimethylamine from making cosmetics. I have been tempted to try that in my formula. since you have mentioned it maybe i will give it a try. Can I use citric acid to neutralize it? Since I already have it

[komirra]

@johnb I already have centrimonium chloride and like it for detangling. I have been trying numerous formulas to make a hair conditioning treatment for my dry coarse hair, but none seem to be working the way I would like. currently my cationic of choice is BTMS 50 and behtrimonium chloride because they are most readily avaliable. but I havent been getting the silky softness afterfeeling I want from a conditioner, even after adding silicones and centrimonium chloride.

I thought I might try another cationic emulsifier and see if it would give me different results. 

[komirra]

thanks!! Ill give it a try they next time i make a chemical purchase

[komirra]

My new guess at the formula I am going to try. hopefully with the addition of the ester and less shea butter there will be more slip

Behentrimonium chloride- 2.5-3%
Cetyl alcohol- 5%
CETAC- 2%
Dimethicone- 2%
IPM-1.5%
Glycerin- 1%
Shea butter-.5%
Cetearyl alcohol- .5%
fragrance-.5%
preservative- .5%
water- q.s

[komirra]

@Perry never thought about removing the shea butter. would an ester provide more slip in place if the shea butter? perhaps fractionated coconut oil or IPM?

I was actually trying to mimic this conditioner 

Water/Eau/Aqua, Cetyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Cetrimonium Chloride, Dimethicone, Isopropyl Myristate, Glycerin, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter), Cetearyl Alcohol, Fragance/Parfum, Dorago Officinalis (Borage) Seed Oil, Hippophaea Rhamnoides (Sea Buckthorn) Seed Oil, Panthenol, Tocopheryl Acetate, Ctric Acid, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Butyphenyl Methylproponial, Limonene, Hydroxycitronellal, Hydroxyisohexyl 3-Cyclohexene Carboxaldehyde, BCC12-Base

this conditioner has alot of slip. i guess it thought that replacing the IPM for more shea butter wouldn’t have a big difference. I know they are nothing alike, i thought the shea butter was “better for hair”. everything elimanated I didn’t think was essential.  

[komirra]

@Belassi 
I see that you often reccommend lamesoft PO 65 alot for hair products for dry hair and skin. would just getting the glycerl oleate by itself, which is easier for me to get have the same effect?