ketchito
Forum Replies Created
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Thank you @Perry and @PhilGeis, I appreciate your comments.
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@ajw000 I’d use something like that:
PEG-100 Stearate 1.5-2.0
Glyceryl stearate 1.5-2.0
Steareth-2 0.2-0.25
Steareth-21 0.2-0.25I’d also cut Carnauba wax by half (or even better, replace it by a fatty alcohol, which give you consistency without impairing stability).
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@ajw000 I wouldn’t replace PEG-100 Glyceryl Stearate, but use both PEG-100 Glyceryl Stearate and Glyceryl Stearate. If needed, you could actually add another pair of W/O and O/W emulsifiers (like steareth-21 and steareth-2, like Unilever does in some formulas). Another approach would be to use both PEG-100 Glyceryl Stearate and Glyceryl Stearate, plus a polymeric emulsifier (like Sepigel 305).
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@em88 No worries, I had my share of nightmares about that same issue some time ago.
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@ajw000 Petrolatum, lanolin, carnauba…they are heavy substances to be emulsfied. High viscosity of your emulsion might delay phase separation, but you’d still see things like creaming. I see you’re only using O/W emulsifiers, so I’d start by adding a W/O emulsifier as well, to make the emulsion more stable.
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@em88 The problem is not having SA with CAPB, the problem is having an anionic surfactant, low pH and CAPB.
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@Abdullah Some surfactants can increase pKa of organic acids (like Benzoic acid), making them available in their acid form at pH a bit higher than expected. There are shampoos preserved with Sodium benzoate that with the right surfactant, can preserve Benzoaic acid’s activity even at pH as high as 6.
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Since they have Salicylic acid and Sodium benzoate, that shampoo might have a fairly low pH. Low pH plus highly anionic surfactants (like SLS and SLES) makes CAPB a no-go, since CAPB behaves as a cationic surfactant at low pH (aprox. below 5), and it might form a precipitate with anionics when added.
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@harryc I agree with @chemicalmatt. Polymeric surfactants don’t work for every type of emulsions, and need to be aided sometimes by more traditional HLB-emulsifiers. Now, for heavy silicones (like gums), it could be worth to try using silicone emulsifiers, which were specifically designed for these systems.
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@DreaNkenna Could you describe precisely what you’re experiencing as phase separation? If you have sedimentation, that can be your pearlizer not having enough support to be suspended (Versathix doesn’t give much resistance to shear). If you see creaming (a white layer on top), that might be the acrylamide opacifier.
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@catanasio Butters and EO are heavy stuff to be emulsified, plus your oil phase is quite large for an O/W emulsion. This makes me think that the 4% of Lotionpro 165 might not be enough (even adding some Sepimax Zen). I’d do one of these things: 1) increase 1-2% of the Lotionpro 165, 2) Add a bit of Steareth-2 and Steareth-21 (0.5-0.75% of each) to help Lotionpro 165, 3) Add a polymeric emulsifier like Sepigel 305 (1-2%). If the product gest too thick, you can always reduce/remove Cetyl alcohol.
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@filiz I used to have few issues with HEC back in the day, and I found out some literature. Perhaps this one could help you: http://doorirng.com/data/Personel%20care%20cellosize.pdf.
There is a method in that brochure that includes heating, and that could help get rid of the bubbles. Good luck!
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@”marek.barnas” Did you try mixing the solubilizers? There are few blends from big suppliers, that are actually a mixture of PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil and a Polysorbate (some even add Laureth-9 to the combo). The key is to find the righ proportion of solubilizers.
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@filiz Could you switch from TEA to Sodium Hydroxide, to see if it improves? Also, any chance the turbidity might be caused by bubbles (since you’re adding high levels of HEC, viscosity might make bubbles formed during mixing, hard to be released).
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@Batoul Can you do another test, keeping the hexamide and removing one of the other ingredients? This could help you find the one hexamide is reacting with. After that, it’d be good to check if pH change prevents this reaction, so I’d use either a more acid or basic solution to see if that helps.
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@Batoul I’d make more tests, removing each ingredient to find out which one is causing trouble. The one I’d start with is p-cresol, since it’s one that could give that red color.
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@Tyss Is modified HEC, the hydrophobically modified version? HEC is usually added directly to the water, prior to surfactants/soap. If the material is not properly hydrated and the polymer is not able to expand, then clumps are formed, so it’s better to add it before any other ingredient.
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@filiz Add first the HEC with high mixing. Mix for 5 minutes, and only then, increase the pH (Sodium hydroxide works well, but use only a little amount -don’t stop mixing while adding it-).
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@Stanley If you want to use either ZnO or TiO2 in yor sunscreen, you might find helpful to use some esters (like C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate or Isopropyl myristate), in fairly high amounts. this would increase not only texture, but also increase spreadability and overall SPF.
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@filiz You need to slowly add the HEC directly to the vortex formed during mixing at moderate-high speed. I’d go at 1000 rpm or even more, and leave it mixing for at leat 10 min. One thing that improves mixing is adding some base (eg., Sodium hydroxide, TEA), to help dissolve the outer shell that recovers polymer particles.
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@vhogiono You can check this patent from P&G: https://data.epo.org/publication-server/document?iDocId=5381444&iFormat=2. The ratio of fatty alcohols and surfactant in the premix is also crucial. In the patent, they made the premix with aprox. 10% SLES, 7% stearyl alcohol, 4% cetyl alcohol, and the rest as water. I did it some time ago, and it went well (using a very standard lab mixer), so I’m sure you can get something like that. Good luck!
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@CB007 You have a lot of emulsifier in your formula without having real oils in it, most of the ingredients you have here are water soluble/dispersible, even the Amodimethicone has already its own emulsifier. If it was because of the fragrance, chances are your fragrance is already more water dispersible (due to its own solubilizers), so reducing the amount of Polysorbate 20 (try it first at 0.5%) and/or increasing the Amodimethicone blend might work.
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@Bax65 Indeed!…I actually had the same issue with that opacifier few months ago, and had nightmares for weeks, before finding that life-saving info from Dow.
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@vhogiono Using fatty alcohols is an interesting aproach (similar to what P&G does in theis shampoos). The issue there is that you first need to form a lamellar gel (premix) with the fatty alcohols, surfactant and water, and then add it to the main mixture. The ratios of the premix should be very narrow and the process as well requires some particula equipment. You could check some P&G patents for that matter.
Glycol stearate (GS) is widely used both as opacifier and pearlizer. The difference is the manufacture of both: while in opacifiers you have GS randomly arranged, in pearlizers you have very organized sheets that effectively reflect light (due to a controlled mixing and cooling process). Lamesoft TM Benz if a good GS based opacifier, if you want to give it a try.