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@Asad_Nazir It might be possible that you have an excess of NaOH, and that makes the dye degrade. You could try with a different dye (Liquitint or Hostatin type) or neutralizing with TEA instead of NaOH.

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@Juliatrudie With so much mineral oil and waxes, I’m surprised it emulsifies at all. What you are experiencing is the difference in sweat composition between palms and face. Unlike palms, face have glands that produce sebum, so by not only you have the fats from your formula, but also your natural fats that you need to emulsify, and that changes the balance. I’d reduce some fats (mineral oil and waxes) from your formula and replace the high HLB surfactant with a higher one (closer to 15).

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@Asad_Nazir Did the pH of your product remain the same after those 3 months? Or did it drop?

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Abdullah said:

@Pharma At the right one, the ‘incompatibility’ can actually increase stability… 
Can you explain this interaction a bit more or where can i study about interactions like this. 

This is interesting for me because i have seen some Serave products and phique conditioner that uses anionic & cationic surfactant. I knew they are doing something good but don’t know what are they doing and why are they doing so.

@Abdullah You can start here: http://www.scientificspectator.com/documents/Olenick%20Compilation/Ch%2015%20Cationic%20Anionic%201.pdf

There are also few books that talk about the benefits from these type of antagonistic interactions.

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drjayseesunish said:

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I’d make a salt curve of your systems to know if you’re oversalting it or not.

@ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too????

@ketchito adding less or excess of salt alter the viscosity. This salt depand viscosity depand on salt curve but if we want to get viscosity with other polymers then, is there same danger? Any curve related issues? Or less and excess do not alter viscosity  a lot.
If not any issues then which polymers best for liquid detergents or wash products? 

There are many polymeric rheology modifiers for surfactant based products. Particularly, for liquid detergents you want them not to be too costly. I used Acusol 820 in the past, but at the end, I prefer NaCl.

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Annyeap said:

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat Usually CAPB and NaCl are added as the last ingredients, to reach the final viscosity (unless you have a cationic polymer, in which case, you could use some CAPB before your cationic polymer, to avoid direct interaction with your anionic surfactant). Also, why do you wait 24 hours to add CAPB? 

@ketchito, can I just check with you, in a 16% SLES (70%)/5% CAPB (35%)/3.6% Lauryl Glucoside formulation which I then thicken with 3% salt, is it possible to increase the CAPB % to increase its viscosity? Would it accept the stability? I add the CAPB at the beginning, is it better to add CAPB at the end?

You really need to test it, since every system is different. If you are going to modify the level of CAPB, add it almost at the end, before NaCl.

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Annyeap said:

ketchito said:@ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too????

Sometimes you have more than one peak in your salt curve, so you could keep adding salt. Alternatively, you could add water to dilute the effect of salt. Or add some rheology modifier.

@ketchito is there any way to know how many peaks there is in a salt curve besides testing?

The only way is to test. Start with adding a little amount of salt, and then keep on adding it bit by bit, measuring viscosity befor anny new addition.

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@Cosmetic_Chemist It’d be better thay you try the formula and see how it feels, before continuing with the same structure. Also, if PG is propylene glycol, it might cause some irritation at such a high level, not to mention the stickiness.

Btw, do hoy have a pH of 4.0-4.5 with that level of arginine?

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I agree with @Pattsi. You have a very low level of emulsifier, especially for butters, which are hard to emulsify. Btw, in the body of your message you mention 0.05% of emulsified blend, but the formula shows 0.625%. Which one is correct?

Also, sorbic acid alone is not going to protect your product, and might cause some discomfort in consumers at high levels.

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@Mayday The studies mentioned in the CIR for EDTA salts are for their physiological use. That’s completely different to their use in cosmetics, so you don’t need to worry about that.

Now, using calcium sodium EDTA might reduce its chelating capacity compared to disodium or tetrasodium EDTA. Sodium can be replaced easily in the sodium EDTA salt, so spots for chelation are available, but calcium is not that easy to be replaced since it forms more stable complexes with EDTA. 

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@Arcene The main question would be why are you adding PS-20 and at such a high level? I don’t see any oily material, so I’d actually remove it. It you want to have some thickness, there are other ways. The turbidity might be due to the kraft point of your system.

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@Isaac52 You mentioned a pH of 8, but I don’t see a neutralizer (for the Stearic acid). Did you add some base? Also, stearates makes nice but soapy emulsions. And as @Formulator mentioned, you need high pH for your stearate to work, which will contradict the pH required for your preservative system. I’d advise you to change your emulsifiers and keep your pH low (adding also a proper antibacterial to support your organic acids).

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@Queen_Benin2468 Are you trying to make a W/O or O/W emulsion?

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@Anca_Formulator As @PhilGeis mentioned, did you have a pH drift over time, with the sample you put in the oven? Also, under which conditions (part of the process, temperature) you’re adding your preservatives, especially PE 9010 and Sodium benzoate? 

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@Zahra Simethicone is basically poly(dimethylsiloxane) or dimethicone, with added silica gel. I actually used it as antifoam agent in fabric softeners. But I’d never think about it as “activated” dimethicone, because the dimethicone polymer didn’t suffer any structural change. But that’s only my opinion ????

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@drjayseesunish I’d add first the CAPB alone to the main batch, almost at the end, and then, I’d premix fragrance with CDEA and add it to the main batch. See how it works.

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@Zahra I never heard the term activated dimethicone. Perhaps it refers to the modified dimethicones with functional groups (like amodimethicones), but in that case, the term should be reactive dimethicone.

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@drjayseesunish Try premixing your fragramce with CDEA, and see how it goes.

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@MarkBroussard The stardard I like the most for natural ingredients, is the one set by…nature  ????Isolation, solvent extraction, biotechnological manufacture may all well fit within this scope.

And of course I like synthetics (I’m a chemist), but there should be NO shame on calling an ingredient synthetic, if that’s what it is. And that’s what I call transparency….not using some twisted standard made to fit some “consumer need”. Consumers don’t need “natural” or synthetics, the industry made them believe that. They do need safe and well perfoming products, where ingredients and final products cause the least damage to the environment. Now I can apply to a congress position. My moto would be: I wear synthetics, and I love it! ????

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MarkBroussard said:

@ketchito:

You actually need two or three ingredient definitions.  (1) Natural (The USDA definition is a good start; (2) Naturally-Derived, meaning ingredients that use precursors that are naturally derived, plant-based, but synthetically modified to yield the final ingredient; (3) Nature-Identical, but synthetically manufactured.  But, I doubt that will ever happen by the FDA.

In looking at their products, the Oars + Alps natural claims focused on the natural ingredients they did use in their products, but completely ingnored the PEGS and other synthetic ingredients they also used, so it was a pretty blatant case of making false natural claims.  They clearly were not following any natural standards, so they can’t use that as a defense of any kind.

I think given the egregious violation, this case will get settled out of court.

@MarkBroussard I think that’s precisely why things get complicated: different organizations come up with their own definition of natural to favor their own interests (or the ones of their clients). As a chemist, it blows my mind that something can be called natural even though it was made synthetically. And it makes me sad all the shame it’s being put onto the synthesis of chemicals. This only reflects on the huge divorce there is between people and science, and the lack of ethics and transparency there is in the industry.

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@Cosmetic_Chemist Not sure that system would be enough to protect against all groups of microorganisms, with so much available water in your system, good amount of HEC and Propanediol (nutrients), lack of surfactants (they work in synergy with organic acids) and lack of boosters (like chelators). Not to mention the required low pH.

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Defining a natural ingredient shouldn’t be so complicated from the technical point of view. Nevertheless, by using only natural ingredients, not only performance of most products would be drastically impaired, but most suppliers would not be able to sell (almost) anything.

So, it’s again favoring the manufacturers rather than the consumers, to make the natural CLAIM a very profitable and long-lasting one. It seems like an impossible goal to make companies more honest and ethic. 

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@nmalti That means guar gum didn’t incorporate into your product. Either you try mixing it with higher speed, or better remove the top layer and use a different thickener, although this is not a good practice if you intend to sell the product. If your product has a betaine, it’d be worthy to lower the pH a bit, to see if viscosity increases.

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@Sara21 You could alternatively replace PQ-10 by Guar HPTC at 0.2%, which will also help a bit with your viscosity (there is a special grade for clear products). And don’t forget to add disodium EDTA to boost preservation. 

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@drjayseesunish I wouldn’t use essential oils in a liquid dishwash, it’s expensive, hard to solubilize and can impact viscosity. I’d rather use a common fragrance, which will usually come with a solubilizing system according to your product. That one can be added directly, or pre-solubilized with part of your surfactants.