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fotis83 said:

Fekher said:

@fotis83 I guess SLES because price / quality  compromise. 

Thank you very much. It’s just for personal use and I’ve been especially scared of SLES, which seems to be contaminated with 1,4 dioxane

@fotis83 1,4-dioxane is present in ethoxylated materials. Nevertheless, it’s content in SLES is extremely low, and it’s been reduced over the years since manufacturing process was improved to remove most of the remaining ethylene oxide. 

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@GeorgeBenson Did you check if that browning of the base occurs even without Tocopherol? 

In our experience, we found that at the same dose, Tinogard TL was way more effective at preventing fragrance change than Tocopherols, in both shampoos and conditioners, and that’s the AOx we use now in all our line.

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@zetein Since the fatty chain in Polyglycerol-4 laurate is short (mainly C12), it can form o/w emulsions. If on the contrary it was long enough to change its interfacial behavior, then it’d probably form w/o emulsions. Each surfactant molecule has a specific balance in its structure to get specific properties, same as each polyquaternium use a specific monomer to tailor its performance.

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Due to the ethoxylation, SLES is milder than both SCS or SLS (both SCS and SLS are basically the same, only one is mainly a C12-C14 and the other predominantly C12). That’s why I prefer SLES 

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@Robert Did you make a sample,to see how it performs? I hope you’re using a good preservative system. For the backbone, I’d advise you to use Alfa olefin sulfonate instead of the glucoside (since it’s cheaper, you can use more and have a higher level of surfactant in your formula). Also, you could replace your PQ-7 by Guar HPTC at 0.15-0.2%, unless you’re making a clear shampoo. I wouldn’t use Cetrimonium chloride in this formula, but stick with a polymer.

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Abdullah said:

ketchito said:

@Abdullah Using Polyglyceryl 4 laurate instead of SLS changes the rules of the game (they are nowhere near comparable).

Aren’t they both high hlb surfactants for LGN emulsions?

@Abdullah It’s like saying that both a train an a car are vehicles, but well…there are big differences ????. To start with, SLS is anionic while the other is a polymeric non ionic surfactant. Also, HLB concept is an old concept that doesn’t apply to all type of surfactants and doesn’t explain many phenomena (there are newer models that @Pharma explained very nicely in a previous post). 

Also, LGN is a very complex concept and you need some equipment to actually confirm you got a crystalline phase, we cannot assume that any emulsifier (even the ones advertised as LGN promoters, which are really not the only ones) with either GMS or a fatty alcohol will produce a lamellar gel network.

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@Abdullah If you’re mixing with a silver spoon, chances are the darkening is due to the presence of hydrogen sulfide, not corrosion from NaOH. Stainelss steel doesn’t show the same behavior as silver (304 is a type of stainless steel commonly used in industrial plants), so you better use a stainless steel spoon, or a plastic one.

I don’t believe NaOH is your issue, but the only way something else (like Sodium silicate) could reduce the potential corrosiveness of NaOH (again, at the level of dilution you’re using NaOH there shouldn’t be a problem) is if you had a stronger oxidant that could passivate the metal surface.

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@Abdullah Using Polyglyceryl 4 laurate instead of SLS changes the rules of the game (they are nowhere near comparable).

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As @ggpetrov, you are comparing ingredients with different structure and properties. Fatty alcohol are structuring agents (they don’t have much activity in the interphase), while GMS is a low HLB emulsifier.

Just out of curiosity, when you mention both emulsions are stable, for how long and in which conditions? I don’t think they are stable during the normal shelf life of a final product (there’s a reason why SLS is used more like a detergent, and that’s its hydrophilic-hydrophobic balance….one anionic surfactant that can be used as emulsifier is Cetyl sulfate, for instante).

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@Abdullah Could you be a bit more specific when you mention the change in texture of your spoon? Could you try mixing your solution of Sodium hydroxide with the same spoon to see if the phenomena is the same?

As I told you before, NaOH is commonly used in the industry to neutralize LABSA. Here’s a guide from Stepan, so you can have a reference of the amount needed to neutralize LABSA (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.stepan.com/content/dam/stepan-dot-com/webdam/website-product-documents/product-bulletins/surfactants/BIOSOFTS101.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjlo4v1wfb7AhWjHLkGHX6jCW0QFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3FQr50dubD94EsUzZd6VnY).

To your question, adding Sodium silicate wouldn’t reduce the potency of Sodium hydroxyde, on the contrary.

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@Abdullah Could you be a bit more specific when you mention the change in texture of your spoon? Could you try mixing your solution of Sodium hydroxide with the same spoon to see if the phenomena is the same?

As I told you before, NaOH is commonly used in the industry to neutralize LABSA. I’m attaching a guide from Stepan, so you can have a reference of the amount needed to neutralize LABSA.

To your question, adding Sodium silicate wouldn’t reduce the potency of Sodium hydroxyde, on the contrary.

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@Abdullah Could you be a bit more specific when you mention the change in texture of your spoon? Could you try mixing your solution of Sodium hydroxide with the same spoon to see if the phenomena is the same?

As I told you before, NaOH is commonly used in the industry to neutralize LABSA. I’m attaching a guide from Stepan, so you can have a reference of the amount needed to neutralize LABSA.

To your question, adding Sodium silicate wouldn’t reduce the potency of Sodium hydroxyde, on the contrary.

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@Abdullah Sodium silicate can work (check its solubility over time…that you need to test yourself since every system is different), along with STPP. Sodium hydroxide is also used, and within normal use, it shouldn’t be corrosive in final application.

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@niecie2k Have you tried adding a bit of neutralizer (like Sodium hydroxide or TEA?). Almost all of the ingredients you added are oil soluble, so I don’t see how any of those could hold the water, so neutralizing part of your Stearic acid could help.

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@Fekher You could replace some of your silicones with esters and/or mineral oil….else, your serum will cost more than your liver Unless cost is not an issue. I don’t recall having issues with fragrances in these type of formulas, check if you’re mixing it properly, or replace the fragrance. 

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@Cherma I’d remove Stearic acid, increase Ceto stearyl alcohol to 4%, add some Behentrimoniun chloride (0.5%, for instance), and increase your Mineral oil to 1% (in case you’re not willing to add a silicone). Test the sample with consumers, to have their feedback.

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@Abdullah Perhaps you mean Calcium carbonate instead of Sodium carbonate? Sodium carbonate is added to reduce water hardness and as a filler in some powder products, but it’s not the best choice to reduce water hardness precisely because of the formation of Calcium carbonate which can accumulate in pipes and deposit on fabrics. I don’t understante the comment about Sodium hudroxide, since to form a carbonate salt, you need to add some carbonate source. Silicates are good alkalinity reservoirs, but initial solubility can be a problem (tends to precipitate). 

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@Abdullah Builders are not something you want or need to add in high amounts. Plus, replacing SLS by SLES reduce the sensitivity of your anionic towards water hardness. Also, creating mixed micelles with CAPB or similar reduce charge density of your anioninc, lowering its sensitivity as well.

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@DaveStone PQ-7 is very useful in rinse off products, mostly cleansers from which PQ-7 can deposit on hair/skin and help other ingredients deposit (like some silicones). In a leave-on, since the product won’t be rinsed, you don’t need somethong as specific as a cationic polymer, and you can use silicones, esters and other type of emollients and cationic surfactants right away.

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@biomate Did you read the CIR report (https://www.cir-safety.org/supplementaldoc/safety-assessment-parabens-used-cosmetics) or the Scientific Committee of the EU opinion (ec.europa.eu

https://ec.europa.eu › docsPDF

SCCS/1514/13 - Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety - European Commission) on parabens?

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@GeorgeBenson Butylene glycol is a small water soluble molecule, so (as you experienced) it can’t compete with emollient esters which have higher molecular weight and are more hydrophobic.

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Graillotion said:

ketchito said:

@Graillotion Funny thing that a client recently patch tested the following:

- Shampoo w/fragrance 1
- Shampoo w/fragrance 2
- Conditioner w/fragrance 1
- Conditioner w/fragrance 2

Both shampoos and conditioners share the same formula (except for the fragrances)…and both shampoos were slightly irritant (irritation index around 0.21) while both conditioners were not irritants at all (irritation index about 0). So, same fragrances but different carriers (patch tests diluted at 2% -both shampoos and conditioners, but separately and with different subjects-). Maybe P&G was right about adding Cetyl alcohol to all their shampoos after all. 

Do I understand you correct….the conditions contain cetyl alcohol?

@Graillotion Yes. The conditioners contain both Cetyl and Stearyl alcohol. 

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@Abdullah Can you try one sample without STPP nor EDTA? Just add your surfactants and CMC. If that one doesn’t separate, then your CMC doesn’t toletare that much electrolyte…but if that one also separates, then maybe the way you’re adding your CMC needs to be changed.

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@Robert Did you check for products on the market to see how they do? Most biphasic comercial products have non polar emollients, water and inorganic salts. Inorganic salts (like chlorides and phosphates) are added as density balancing agents, to temporarily create a mixture once you shake the bottle, and delay phase separation. 

Cetrimonium chloride being water soluble, will try to emulsify part of your silicones, and bring that to the water phase (that’s why you don’t have a clear water phase). If you want to add an emulsifier to delay phase separation even further, choose one that has same affinity for both phases  and at very low level (let’s say at 0.05% total active matter).

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@Robert You could solve the issue if you remove Cetrimonium chloride, but I don’t think i’d hold for 4-5h till separation. You could try increasing your salt (you could even add some phosphates) and adding some ethanol.