[jemolian]

Can you please explain what you mean whether i can compete in costing/profit marging/marketing.I dont undestqnd how can i compete in profit margin and in marketing, can you give an example to make it clear? 

Why would people buy from me if i merely duplicate Laroche Posay so try to differentiate myself in costing; marketing or margin. 

I’m not asking you to differentiate your brand by costing, marketing or margin. You seem to have misunderstood. 

Previously mentioned, when formulating a product or for development, ingredients can be chosen for different factors such as marketing, performance, compatibility, etc. It’s already quite straight forward in what i had mentioned here. 

Have you already calculated the cost of ingredients, other costs such as production, overheads, misc / marketing fees, and your profit margin of your product? With the profit margin, can your business be sustained? This are business basics, so i’m not sure why you are not clear about it assuming you already had calculated those? 

You might want to discuss with your mentor or get a business consultant on this part. Business sustainability is important, also you don’t want to make the mistake of having to adjusting the price of your products upwards after making the mistake of not having a sufficient profile margin. Will your products still be competitive to those benchmark brands that you said you want to compete with?   

Just to be more active on my end can i still formulate the gentle cleanser for dry skin something similar to LaRoche Posay and give 50 ml samples for people to try; give to 30 people and give them surveys as well and also give 50 ml of the cleansing oil to 30 pople either the same people or other people. So at least they can answer the survey and also give feedback in regards to my two cleansers: the oil and the gentle water based cleanser like Laroche.So with their feedback ill know what works more oil or the other and ill know what to improve/ do you think this is a good plan?  

It’s up to you if you want to do that. However keep in mind for the below that you have mentioned before and not make the mistake when surveying. 

I watched one day a video on Youtube on what is a product market fit and they said that product market fit is found when people buy your prodiuct not when they fill in a survey or when they say they will buy through your survey; 

They also said survey are used when you already have a target audience and and want to create a new product. Not when you’re starting out and have a product you want to test.

Searching, asking question to people whether they will buy or not will never show you the real picture.  You’ll learn more by going out there (on- or offline), sharing your product with others and talking with them.

Who your target is, you’ll learn by doing. Why they will (or will not) purchase, you’ll learn by doing. What you need to do next, you’ll learn by doing.

[jemolian]

It’s mainly the surfactants + humectants. The Glyceryl Oleate will also give it a slightly moisturizing effect. 

My foaming face wash is just made with the mild foaming surfactants + propanediol + preservative.  

[jemolian]

Im noticing they all come in big sizes.But as a new brand can i go with smaller size to test? 

Sure

what do you mean when you said that being more price competitive is not your best choice/Are you saying my price should be a slightly higher than the prices i just gave above?

You should ask yourself, what is the point of duplicating a similar product compared to those products? Can you out compete in costing / profit margin / marketing? 

As you mentioned, why should people buy your product over the name brand products? So what is your diffentiating factor? Why chooses your products compared to your competitors even if they don’t choose the name brand products? 

 by standing out and differentiating myself- can this be through an ingredient that is not present in the laroche for example or avene or cerave or cetaphil? how else can i be different? 

This is up to you to decide. I believe I had given some references in my previous comments. There are many ways to differentiate yourself. You need to decide what that is and how you can translate that into your products to let customers understand your brand and product value. 

[jemolian]

when the product lathers too much; this means there is a high concentration of surfactant and thus not suitable for dry skins right? So fr dry and senstive skin does it mean the surfactant dosage should be kept minimal? 

Some surfactants foam more, some less. Less surfactants are better but it can depend on the mildness of the surfactants. People just want effective cleansing while having sufficient mildness. You can test out what that is with different combination / product types. 

Toleriane by LaRoche Posay
AQUA / WATER • ETHYLHEXYL PALMITATE • GLYCERIN • DIPROPYLENE GLYCOL • CARBOMER • SODIUM HYDROXIDE • CAPRYL GLYCOL / CAPRYLYL GLYCOL • ETHYLHEXYLGLYCERIN
There are no active ingredients above right? Though people rave about it; so this means the great result is only delivered by the fillers right? So does this give me a margin to offer an imrpoved version and add some actives like ceramides, hyaluronic acid, and argan oil and put rose water instead of plain water ? can i add oil? 

This is basically a lotion, there’s no surfactants. People can still cleanse with this. Avene also has a similar cleanser with this concept if I recall correctly. 
Putting actives only increases your cost. As previously mentioned, for cleansing products you can reduce your actives since they are washed off. 

Cetaphil gentle cleanser
Water, Glycerin, Cetearyl Alcohol, Panthenol, Niacinamide, Pantolactone, Xanthan Gum, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Benzoate, Citric Acid
Here again i dont see any active ingredient but only filler ingredients. tHE ONLY ACTIVE is niacinamide. 

There is panthenol.

either i offer the same product at a lower price point or develop a superior premium product at luxury price point:so does that mean adding more luxrious ingredeints? 

This is up to you. The price point of those products you referred shouldn’t be that expensive, so fighting a price war by being more price competitive is not your best choice if you are starting out. I’ll recommend standing out and differentiating your product in another way. You have to think about it yourself. As mentioned the surveying helps if you know what people have issues with when using similar products. 

[jemolian]

when i read online i saw that FOAMS btw are for oily skins, gel same oily and acne prone; jelly same. So this make me understand tht either all Moroccan girls ahve oily skin and im the only one whp has dry skin or this makes me think that the milk and cleansing cream are not good enough because these i dont find them much. I want to adress the needs of dry skins and want to give them something thqt cleanser without having the tightening sensqtion when they cleanse. Can a gel be made for dry skins? 

It depends on your formulation. A cleanser can be changed to different types by adding different ingredients. Foam can be referred to soap or saponified cleansers or that they lather up very well to a fine foam, gel cleansers can also do the same or some doesn’t lather at all. 

My skin is on the dry side but I have also made a foam cleanser in a foam pump bottle, and have also made a cleansing milk / lotion. It’s how you formulate your cleanser, how you intend for it to perform, and who you intend the potential users to be. I can add some gum or thickener to my foam cleanser formulation and make it into a gel and it still works the same. 

[jemolian]

So the more popular product in geenral or the more popular cleanser since im talking in this discussion about cleansing oil/So this means i choose the most popular cleanser and go do that; right? 

As mentioned, this is up to you. The popular product refers to the one that sells the best for your demographic whatever that is. 

Then you mentioned that it depends on the surfactant.So if i use Polysorbate 80 would that be good for dry skins?  

No point asking me since it depends on your brand concept and product performance results you are trying to achieve. 

They also said survey are used when you already have a target audience and and want to create a new product. Not when you’re starting out and have a product you want to test.

Surveying can do both things as it depends on what you are trying to find out. I believe my previous comments would have mentioned. 

[jemolian]

Besides from Trends, you can also consider seeing some forecasts using the Google Ads Keyword Planner tool. 

Though for research purposes, the platform of choice where your potential customers look for products can vary. Which is why it should be asked in your survey. Some people may search for products in social media platforms which won’t be tracked by Google.

[jemolian]

So is it possible to include electrolytes to my cleansing oil? 

Just leave it in a toner. 

But gel or foam cleansers are best  for oily to acne prone skin they are not suitable for dry and senstive skin

It depends on the surfactant and/or blend formulated, also the active surfactant matter percentage. 

So i learned recently when i started my skincare business that cleansing oil and balms have the advantage of suiting all skin type from oily to combo skin

Again it depends on the formulation. I was talking to one of my staff the last few days, she told me that she prefers the current cleansing balm over the old one she used before because it’s more moisturizing. The older one is used was slightly drying. 

The end results can always vary and you can formulate accordingly. 

shall i go to gel cleanser or cleansing balm ( which are popular) or should i keep the cleansing oil? 

If you decided that your role is to sell, then go with the more popular. If you want to sell by educating, it’s also up to you. Just that it would be a longer route and will take time. It’s up to you to decide what the factors you want to determine your goals and sales are. 

Taking an action is sometimes better at making you learn a lesson than always procrastinating at the idea. 

[jemolian]

Hmm, it depends if you can find the benefits of the floral water to market. You can take the examples from the Korean products. Normally the korean products newadays may include certain plant extract solutions at a high percentage. Those are marketed as essences. 

It still really depend on what the overall formulation is. If it’s floral water with petals (bug food) like the Kiehl’s Calendula Toner, the floral water might make sense, haha. If not, i’m not too sure if hydrosols attract customers that much by themselves since they might not have particularly attractive / trendy constituents besides from the fragrance. 

[jemolian]

I also tested it at about 2.5-3%, specifically the butter pearls, i didn’t particularly observe significant thickening in my moisturizer ? But it seem to be breaking me out slightly compared to the other C10-18 Triglycerides.  

Regarding the gelling agent for this post i’m wondering if the ones from MSR would be workable at what viscosity.
https://www.myskinrecipes.com/shop/en/277-oil-gelling-agent

[jemolian]

I tried at about 10% & 15%, but not sure if will be that opaque at 1-2%, probably cloudy. 

[jemolian]

can butter pearls increase oil viscosity without making the oil opaque or cloudy?

No. 

 

[jemolian]

So what are the diff ways to engage with customers? are surveys one way? what could be others? 

Basically it’s just creating conversations with them. You can google the methods, surveying is just the main one.

why would the target audience use a cleansing oil and not a balm and here you said it boils down to branding, i need to create attractive branding to sell.

The long term sales depends on customer preferences. Branding or marketing can only get them to try the product.

So in that case i should first ask people what do they cleanse their face with cus if no one for instance ( extreme case) no one uses a cleansing oil do you think with solid marketing and branding i ll be able to sell sthg that no one uses? 

Whether the branding and marketing can get them to buy the product and use it long term depends on whether it makes sense for them to use it. 

[jemolian]

What other ways can i use to gauge there is a demand for my cleansing oil aside from survey that are not expensive?  

The other way that is not expensive is to talk to someone that already knows the answer you need.

Then you said Or choose one your brand concept stands for.Im not sure i understand what you mean ” choose one my brand stands for? 

This is open for interpretation. If you don’t get it then there’s not much need to look to deep into this.

so if i interview 30 girls and all say we use cleansing oil then no need to do a balm and vice versa right? 

Yes. 

Potential pattern & frequency of product usage ( WHY IS this important Jemolian please ?)

This affect the demand of the product. If they don’t use it as often, you don’t need to produce such as large batch. 

Global or local events affecting product usage and sales due to user requirements ( can you pls give an example? )

It’s already part of my story / analogy. 

So here you mean i should analyze their answers and based on that decide on which product i will develop: a balm or an oil correct?

Yes. At this point, you are just circling around the idea too much. I’m not sure why you are doing that. 

You said i can target Gen z if my product fits their needs and budget.But we know in marketing that by trying to sell to everyone you end up selling to none. 

Realistically if you sell to none, then there’s no demand for your product. If product can appeal to different people, sometimes outside of your target demographic. If the percentage of those people increase, you are telling me that you don’t intend to market to them to increase sales? 

This is the part where i’m stuck the most? Should i go ahead and make a small batch and test the market or should I as per @Jemolian survey the audience then make the product? 

It’s up to you. If you insist on launching the cleansing oil, you can go ahead to find a suitable place to distribute the samples and get feedback. If you want to plan the development, you can survey then provide the samples to the survey group. 

even if i request feedback they might say things that will make me happy such as : oh i loved your oil but in reality they didnt. Imagine if i go ahead and produce based on their positive yet misleading feedback.

It depends on the people and culture. You should know your people well enough. 

Because people could try my product but this is not an indicator as to whether there is a demand for the product. They are trying for free not buying. Im trying to think of it from different angles to be as efficient as possible:) 

Which is why you survey the people before you given them any samples if you intend to. Then give them the sample, if that is next step, then survey again. 

[jemolian]

1-You said products are normally developed for ppl who require or demand them.So how will i know makeup users will demand or require  cleansing oil? 

Through your survey. Or create both. Or choose one your brand concept stands for. There’s always a reason you can find or make up.

2-You said so i need to know what my products solve: 
i don’t feel these questions are good because what if they don’t use a cleansing oil in the first place?
Yu said i can ask them: do you use an oil based cleanser? doesn’t this sound a bit biased? instead can i be general…
So is it okay to ask: what do you wash your face with to remove makeup? 

Regarding this, you can create a question flow. The survey structure can be general, then go more in depth with each product. There are a lot of questions that can be asked, but it depends if the person has enough time or is willing to spend time answering. 

For example: Do you use any skincare products, including cleansers or just soap for cleansing? (If yes) How many products and which of them do you use the in AM / PM? What are the concerns you are trying to address with the products? 

For example of in depth; for example if the person uses a toner: For the toner, why do you use it? Which brand are you using? Why do you choose or why do you prefer that particular product? Have you used and previous toners or similar products before? How does it compare? 

Other non product related question examples: Where do you get product recommendations? (Example, word of mouth from friends, dermatologist, esthetician, etc, social media, youtube, reddit, etc?) Are there anything about the brand of products you are using that interests you? (Example, eco friendly, natural, organic, indie brand, local brand, cruelty free, vegan, glass packaging, long lasting performance, shows results, recommended by influencer, etc?)

3-you said a person may choose to use a cleansing balm for the convenience it offers vs an oil. 
You also said during covid demand for balm decreased then it picked up again once restrictions were lifted-is it only for balm or cleansing oils as well? 

This is just an example. The main point of the story or analogy is just to point out a few things: 

• Preference in product; why oil vs balm
• Potential pattern & frequency of product usage
• Global or local events affecting product usage and sales due to user requirements

You need to look and interpret base on what they mention in the survey as they can help you to prioritize products for development and launch based on demographic demands. 

Once again this means talking to makeup users and seeing what they cleanse their skin with right? (answer number 1 above) 

That is right. Overall surveying more people from your demographic will help to determine the priority. 

-

Regarding the Gen Z, you can also target them if your products fit their needs or budget. Though sometimes products are shared by multiple people in the family. 

About the women who live the night life, they are one of the segment or market for cleansing oils or balms or makeup removing products in general, which can steer your marketing that way. It’s about relatability. Sometimes besides from budget, it’s also about ease of use. 

[jemolian]

So for product performace you only do reviews on ingredients and do sample tests with your staff only? and then what happens if their answers are satisfactory? you go straight to the market and start promoting?  And if their feedback is not satisfactory, what do you do? 

For me, there are a few steps that i do: 

1. Sourcing, for example visiting Cosmoprof, online, etc
2. Reviewing product information on their site inclusive of USP, price point, availability locally if any distributors, ingredients list. The USP of the brand can include the brand concept, such as natural derived, organic, promotion of product biodegradability / recycling, country specific such as Korean, Taiwan, etc, founded or co-created by a doctor, etc. The USP of the products can be high percentages of known ingredients, award winning from institutes / bodies / magazine, with very good testimonials or reviews based on performance in country of origin, made in specific locations such as Jeju island, ingredients sourced from specific locations, using unique ingredients, etc
3. I will then contact the brand and ask for the MOQ and supply price. 
4. If MOQ and price fit our requirement, samples will be purchased and tested for feedback with our office staff. I will look at the feedback, evaluate and ask further questions to determine if product is worth importing. 

For example, we currently distribute 2 brands. One of the brand, i will refer to as brand H, is founded by a doctor and is known for high percentages of known ingredients. For one of the product types, the sheet mask, we are selling brand H’s. Another of our brand, brand P, recently launched a similar product. They ask if we want to sell their sheet mask. Sheet mask prices are relatively close for both brands. 

Upon staff testing, the feedback from one of them is that the mask material crinkles, the hydration performance is average. The other testers’ feedback is that the material is fine on her face, the performance doesn’t stand out. 

I haven’t really decided if i want to recommend importing the sheet mask or not but the probability is not very high due to performance concerns. Also because we already have a range from brand H, though it may still be imported ultimately because of brand expansion of brand P, which may be due to our management & recommendations from brand P as we are their distributor.  

Regarding product satisfaction, it depends on whether you can accept. Everyone’s expectations and preferences are different, you can only take a more objective approach. 

[jemolian]

Then comes the question why using a cleansing oil and not a cleansing balm?( because the target might ask me that; why should i use your oil and not buy me a balm)? so id say a balm is takes more time, less hygienic and not very convenient to use on the eye area and eyelashes if you wear mascara. do you think its good ? Then why using my oil? id say rich in ingredients that are non comedogenic, gentle emulsifier that wont irritate your skin that need lots of care.But these are features and people don’t care about features they care about benefits.So here i get stuck alone in this. 

The reason to use your oil depends on your marketing. You need to create attractive marketing to sell the USP (unique selling point) of your product. That will be where your brand concept / philosophy, or product performance / aesthetics, or other factors comes in.

face scrub solves the problem of skin dullness, good at promoting fast cell turnover, . He said skin dullness is not a problem, it is a consequence of something that happened.So i tried to figure out and whatever i would say would never be the right answer. 

Question would be, does your demographic still use physical exfoliants? It depends if your demographic has moved to chemical exfoliants. What is the demand for a scrub, how does your stand out? 

Quite many people can face dullness issues so it’s relatively common, so how does your product solve it compare to others? What else besides from dullness?  

But im still not comfortable with my answers.Also as a marketing expert that you are in the field of cosmetics, do you consider dullness, skin irritation, bad blood flow to be problems? Because this mentor would tell me these are not problems and id say: of course these are problems for our audience and hed say: you should think as a business person not as your audience. 

I won’t consider myself a marketing expert, but i will have to evaluate most of the products that are selected for distribution for many department. 

There needs to be demand by customers or products that are general enough for the audiences that has a USP. 

I’ll consider dullness, skin irritation as common products nowadays. You can just develop products that include ingredients to address those issues. It’s hard to have the USP of the products just for these issues as they won’t stand out. About the bad blood flow, i’d assume that would be one of the causes for dark eye circles, there are ingredients for that but it would normally be an eye cream or gel product. Normal bad blood flow is not really addressed in cosmetics. 

So if i want to emulate your methods and check my cleansing oil performance, how do you suggest me to do it?

You can look for people around you and ask if there are people to suggest that you can survey. You can also ask if they are interested to be your beauty testers with a contract before testing. 

Also to that same mentor i once asked him what he thinks of surveys and he said this is the least honest and trustworthy source of information as they are so BIASED. 

Yes, it will be biased so you need more data to get a trend. It’s up to you to decide if that biased is also a demand that you can sell to. Weird thing to say, but a good businessman can sell anything to anyone. 

[jemolian]

( my questions should be focused on the products i intend to make) because otherwise they will tell me about other things that i’m not going to develop now, do you agree here? Based on their feedback i will adjust the products. So if all makeup users that i would interview tell me we dont use cleansing oil to remove our makeup then okay my cleansing oil wont be a good product to continue working on. 

Yes and no. It really depends on how much information you ask and how it can help you to develop your product range. Data collected now will help you with planning the products for future expansion of the range. Most of the time, brands may develop a series of products, for example, a cleanser, toner, serum, cream, etc. Some smaller brands with lesser funding may launch less products such as just 1 or 2 that are their signature product to fit a demand or niche. 

Here are some examples

• A small range - https://www.lessentialglobal.com/
• 1 or 2 products - https://malezia.com/products/urea-moisturizer

Also i used to have a business mentor but things didn’t click well.He would ask me: what problems do your three products solve ( sunscreen, face scrub, cleansing oil) 

Products are normally developed and sold to people who require or demand them, so you need to know what they solve. The answer you give won’t be the exact answer because it’s open question, you can look at the demands of the demographic again. 

For example questions you can think about or ask them can be like this; do they use an oil based cleansing product? Oil cleanser or balm? Why? How often? Price range or price per ML? 

Example, a person may choose to use a cleansing balm because they prefer a product that they can manage on their palm instead of the oil where it can be too runny and hard to manage. They can melt the balm on the hand and gentle rub it on their face to remove the makeup or sunscreen that they use. During the pandemic period where they are working from home or require to wear masks, they require less of the product as they don’t require to use makeup or sunscreen. Demand for the product has picked up again as the restrictions has been lifted. 

with water based i feel that you have to exert more pressure on your skin to completely remove the makeup or sunscreen or whatever is on your skin.Do you agree?

It depends, as long as the product provides sufficient glide, it would be fine. People has different preferences so there are demands for different types of products. You can choose to develop a cleansing product of any type which can range from cleansing oil, cleansing balm, micellar water, micellar cleansing gel, cleansing milk / lotion / cream, cold cream, etc. It depends on your budget and if you see any need to develop either one or at all. It may also be part of your marketing, such as a BHA cleanser for example for an anti blemish range of product. 

[jemolian]

It’s more of a repair ingredient, so i’m not surprised that it hasn’t given you any “ah hah” moments. 

Luckily my colleague is going back to her parent’s house in thailand next week, i can ask her to bring back my order 

[jemolian]

In the end did you buy the ceramides from there? 

[jemolian]

It looks like you have your demographics down. Did you talk to or survey them to get a gauge of the products they will use? Getting to know more will help with getting to know their routine, types of product preference, budget, feedback on products used, things to note for improvements vs competitors’, etc. 

As a marketing person, currently my department deals with cosmetics / skincare as one of the special projects in my department, so when reviewing brands and products, i’m mainly the one to do it. 

In terms of evaluation, normally my preference is to look at potential product performance. Brands already have they vision / philosophy down, so i don’t need to over review that as long as it fits our general criteria. For product performance, ingredients list review and sample tests will be conducted with our staff in our office. I’ll collect feedback regarding all of the aspects of the products, including the price, performance (short & long term), smell, packaging, and other feedback they would like to give including the products that used when testing with the product.  

So no need to aadd things such as vitamin c and hyaluronic acid or green tea extract? Also i have one tiny concern here which is olive oil, wont it clog pores of acne prone skins or oily skins? 

One thing to note would be the budget as it relates to the cost of the product. It affects the potential margin. You can use it to work backwards towards the maximum cost which will affect the choice of materials, unless you are working towards something of a luxury price point, then the cost can increase as long as your marketing justifies. 

For that additives, you can choose to add them later after you decide on the main structural ingredients. Mark has already given you the recommendation of the basic structure, so you can work on that and add in the ingredients for marketing. As a cleansing oil is a rinse off product, i won’t recommend to add too much ingredients that are usually beneficial in leave on formulations as it’s a waste and it increases cost. You can look for those that have some effect for rinse off products if any. 

Comedogenicity varies from person to person. The only way to know is to try it out so there no way to predict. 

thanks a lot for showing me MSR, but they are located in Bangkok and it might take a lot of time to receive the ingredients. 

MSR uses DHL, so it doesn’t take that long. 

Do you recommend adding AHA ( even the most gentle  one)  in the cleansing oil so its acting as a cleanser and an exfoliant? If yes i guess it cant be used near the eyes areas or on the lips?

Will recommend leaving the exfoliation function to another product. 

What should i do so my cleansing oil doesn’t leave a film on the skin once its rinsed off and what should i do to prevent it from causing the vision to become foggy/blurry? What ingredients are responsible for these sensations? 

I’m assuming is the choice of the oil. One of the brand we distributes uses mineral oil for the cleansing balm, so it leaves a film on the skin. I’m fine with it since i have drier skin, but my colleague finds it slightly too oily for preference. 

So in that case no need to use a water-based cleanser cus when water is added its like using a water-based cleanser, is this correct? 

It’s up to the users’ choice, however if they find that the cleansing oil still leaves a film on the skin, they can still chose to use another cleanser. Most people use a water based cleanser on most days anyway, some people use the cleansing oil only as required. 

[jemolian]

Normally i store my powder ingredients that are prone to clumping in an air tight container with a large bag of desiccant / silica beads. 

[jemolian]

For the search function, normally i’d just use “” (quotation marks) if i need to search for a phase. 

[jemolian]

@kivangel i’ve haven’t tried it in anhydrous formulas, normally i use the ones i’ve mentioned in my o/w moisturizer, but i don’t think it would be too difficult or different for anhydrous processing.  

[jemolian]

If you are ordering from TKB, you can try their Tridecyl Trimellitate. 

If you are considering to order from MSR, they do also have Tridecyl Trimellitate, but you can also consider Diisostearyl Malate (mentioned above), Pentaerythrityl Tetraisostearate or Di-PPG-3 Myristyl Ether Adipate (rich but less thick consistency).