[jemolian]

“Clean” beauty is not really regulated so you can claim it to be whatever you want. You can make it part of your brand concept but don’t make it it’s main one. 

Personally it just makes me roll me eyes, we are moving towards better ingredients regulations, but i’m really not impressed with brands making “clean” beauty it’s “personality”. 

If you have to choose, choose something more meaningful like local sourcing, sustainability, upcycling, etc. 

[jemolian]

It really depends on what kind of texture you prefer your butter or cream to be. 

I’d say 2.5% - 3% of a rich emulsifier (eg, 68) with 0.8% - 1% Aristoflex will do. 

[jemolian]

I use the 202 as well since i prefer a matte finish on the skin. I do also have the others and low cost emulsifiers but it really depends on what i want to make. 

For the polymers besides from the usual Sepinov, i will also use the ones from the Ultrez series since i don’t need to wait that long for them to wet compared to the classic 900+ carbomers series.  

[jemolian]

If i didn’t recall wrongly it’s Pemulen Ez-4u

[jemolian]

So here you say that some small crafters charge a low price and then when they see they dont make enough profit they increase that price correct? So what do you suggest here? To me what they should do is to account for all the costs involved in the manufacturing of their products : ingredients, primary and seconday packaging; stickers; filling and advertising.This is the TOTAL COST. To this total cost i will add MY MARGIN to get the RETAIL/SELLING PRICE correct? so this means i dont charge low to attract i charge i ” fair price” meaning a reasonable price that covers my expenses and a margin ill add to it. 

Yes.  However, “low price” is relative to spending and how you determine your margin or brand concept to be. Some brand prefer selling at the lower price, some at a higher price, it depends on the brand position. 

So here you mean if the retailer of a brand you import sets the MSRP at 100 usd; your selling/distribution price is between 25 and 45 dollars? 

Supply / distribution price between 25 - 45. 

lets say pharmacy sells at at say 100usd so you are asking me if i sell it at 30usd to them would i still be profitable, is this what you mean?

Mainly this. It’s already very straight forward in terms of what i was mentioning. 

I dont understand here again the numbers and the concept. Ok so lets say my retail price is 5usd, what is the distribution at 35% that you are talking about? Wait distribution price is applied only in the case of B2B right? Im confused a lot now. 

I’m not sure why you are confused. Putting your products in a store is a B2B move, whether it is by consignment or selling them your products, depending on the terms & conditions, there will be a required amount of profit / commission on their end, which will be directly or indirectly cost of the product. This is also applicable for other distribution routes like you are expanding your products to other regions via distribution, unless you are planning to open a company in those region yourself. 

[jemolian]

How will this help me? 

You will know when you see if for yourself. 

Oh you mean in my survey i should ask people where they search for cosmetics; is it on google, on facebook; on Instagram etc right? 

I believe i have mentioned that before. 

[jemolian]

And how would looking at trends serve me or benefit me, i dont get it? I mean is it still part fo the brand concept to understand more brand concept and expound on what i wrote when i speak to B2C and B2B clients; is this the reasoning behind you suggesting me to look into trends? 

It’s mainly the further refine the concept. The trends I have mentioned may help with that but its up to you to determine if it does since those are marketed by other brands. 

if you have SENSITIVE SKIN we know that the right chemical exfoliator would be something like mandelic acid or a PHA.Again since i want to not make things worse for people with senstive skin; i intend to create a face scrub with mandelic acid. So i have YOU and your concerns in my mind when i develop a product

So how would you know it would work well on people with the specific skin type? A test would be required. Like what I had mentioned for the trends, the brands may send the product for a sensitivity / irritation / allergy reaction test for the results to show something as part of the marketing to the customers. A test can kind of claim the choosing the right active, if not you can just stick to essential oil free or free from some common allergen ingredients. This is up to you to what level you want to prove your concept. 

if yes it should be backed by actions not just words and the actions are  Or its not strong enough to entice people to want to be curious and try?

Normally if you are backed by reasonable proof, people will be willing to test the products out, even if they are curious about the brand / products but ultimately what keeps the customer is the product performance and the value (for money). 

Is my story enough to encourage people to say pick my cleanser over that of Laroche? 

what i understand is that there must be a cohesion between the rband concept and the products of the brand right? by cohesion i mean consistency. So can my brand concept be a diff factor and how to highlight it?

No. So you need to incorporate the ideas and actions to proof or validate your concept as mentioned above for example. Alternatively using ingredients or active suitable to maintain or improve specific skin types. This depends on the product planning and development based on your concept, skin type, product type, product performance requirements, etc. 

[jemolian]

 By the way im reading now about brand concept and i feel like it is more or less the philosophy of the brand; what does the brand stand for overall, is this correct? 

Yes that should be fine for that. You can see what the others say. 

Based on what you had mentioned, you can tag along some of the trends which you can look into: 
- the term “wellaging” instead of anti aging. 
- “you the customer”, which is where surveying and customer feedback comes in
- “skin to be safe”, this is more for marketing but you can get your product tested for allergic reactions if you have the budget. This can work against you since no product is fully allergy free but Korean companies have been doing this for their product and uses it as part of marketing. 
- “right active ingredients”, this can be quite flexible but it depends on what you mean by “right” and to what point. 

[jemolian]

So what i get is : strike a balance between your cleanser ( oil or gel or whateevr) and keeping a good margin to sustain my business.So if for example a cleanwer sells at 13 usd and mine costs _ to make and i sell at 20 BUT NO ONE buys then im at loss or if they sell but the price is low compared to competition and then i decide to move it upwards then its a mistake as you said. so the price should help my business be sustainable and yet the product is in demand and doesnt cost much to produce; that is the main idea right? 

Some small crafter do make this mistake which is why I had mention to do your costing for margin calculation. 

Let me give you a reverse example. You remember that I mention that my company imports and distributes skincare? Distribution prices can range from 25% to 45% of the recommended retail price / MSRP. 

Would your product still profitable at an average of 30% of the retail price? If your product is 10 USD, it should still be profitable at your distribution price, let’s say for example 35%, which is 3.5 USD. 

It’s best to minimise price increases due to price setting mistakes, example if you are only profitable at 5 USD, then to adjust for distribution at 35%, then your retail price will be adjusted to 14+ USD. Are customers still willing to accept at this price point? 

[jemolian]

 i have been procrastinating a lot because im scared to be frank because i still think i must get some work done before i can test

If you know that there are quite some work to be done, I’ll recommend creating any action plan and get it done with. I’m not sure about your country but in certain countries, for example the ones like mine that follows the EU regulations, the products needs to be registered with the government before selling. If you are doing sampling, you might want to look for the testers yourself instead of approaching a store since they will likely not want to take any risk in your activities. 

if you can explain what you mean when you said dont overthink the oil cleanser

If you can’t decide on what type of cleanser to make, just make a general gel cleanser that markets to all skin types. You can add whatever else ingredients as part of your story later if you want. You normally can’t go wrong with a generic cleanse type. 

Could you please accompany me in this because im trying to find out and dont see

Actually we (the people that have commented in this thread) had been going quite some suggestions already, so you don’t particularly need us or me to accompany for that long. You will just need to write up your action plans and commit to them. What we have suggested and what you have researched will add to the list of actions to be taken. Also we won’t be able to here forever since we are providing free advice and just in a general form, you should really look for your mentor or a consultant so you can discuss in specifics with a legal NDA signed for confidentiality purposes. 

Would it be a good starting point to check what the local competiton meaning indie bvrand like me are doing in terms of cleansers? 

Yes, that would also be part of competition research. 

because my add was to simply check the negative revuews on anamzon of Laroche posay and improve on that or like you said DO A SURVEY and see what people care aboiut

If you have no clue, it’s best you do all of the above. 

[jemolian]

so if i want to SELL not EDUCATE and offer a product like that is on the market i can do a gentle cleansing lotion but id i want to differentiate can i add to it mandelic acid so it would cleanse and gentley exfoliate; because this is how i understand when you ask me to differentiate? But if i put mandelic acid can people use it everyday? Can you please help as i want to be different but not sure what i should do? 

You can decide on the Sell:Educate ratio later. Normally you will still need to educate to a certain extent depending on the product since people will still not know about everything your product does, it just varies depend on how educated your demographic is about skincare and ingredients. 

If you want to make an exfoliating cleanser that is fine. This will still be up to you. Depending on the pH and percentage of the acid, the user may not use it daily since you don’t need daily exfoliation. 

The differentiating factor still depends on your brand concept, not just the products. We don’t know what that is, but it’s something you need to decide for yourself. Personally i’d recommend not to overthink the cleanser. A cleanser mainly does 1 or 2 things, cleansing and sometimes is a treatment for skin issues. Most of the time people are just want an effective cleanse and sufficiently mild. The goal is to meet those needs besides from managing the cost to maintain a sufficient margin for marketing and profit for a sustainable business. 

You might want to put more effect into your leave on products. People can purchase another cleanser for reasons such as them finding the price of the current product is not of the value they hoped for, or the performance of the product doesn’t meet your satisfaction due to various reasons. People may also chose to purchase a product from the same brand as they like the brand. 

Assuming you have your products ready, you can choose to market your leave on product to them and get them to try your cleanser. If they are fine with the value and performance, they may try choose to purchase your cleanser. This is more about giving out samples and other methods of marketing. 

If you need a differentiating example: There’s a Chinese brand that seem to have an obsession with cleansing oils. Supposedly they tested a lot of oils / esters / surfactants, and also gotten a factory to specially produce a surfactant for them for their cleaning oil for better efficacy. This would be an obvious differentiating factor. https://youtu.be/KJWaa0kf7vc?t=557 

don’t decide based on what you have read on internet or what you thought. Correct data and information, why your target don’t like to use micellar, why some don’t like cleansing oil, why some like balm and you will see what you should sell, micellar or balm or oil or both or neither. So I will know this info from the survey right? 

Yes, if you have surveyed enough people you think can determine the trend of your demographic. 

And you should be looking into makeup remover category rather than facial cleanser. why is thta? 

This is up to you. There’s no should or shouldn’t. You are the business owner, every decision should make sense for your business.

[jemolian]

Can you please explain what you mean whether i can compete in costing/profit marging/marketing.I dont undestqnd how can i compete in profit margin and in marketing, can you give an example to make it clear? 

Why would people buy from me if i merely duplicate Laroche Posay so try to differentiate myself in costing; marketing or margin. 

I’m not asking you to differentiate your brand by costing, marketing or margin. You seem to have misunderstood. 

Previously mentioned, when formulating a product or for development, ingredients can be chosen for different factors such as marketing, performance, compatibility, etc. It’s already quite straight forward in what i had mentioned here. 

Have you already calculated the cost of ingredients, other costs such as production, overheads, misc / marketing fees, and your profit margin of your product? With the profit margin, can your business be sustained? This are business basics, so i’m not sure why you are not clear about it assuming you already had calculated those? 

You might want to discuss with your mentor or get a business consultant on this part. Business sustainability is important, also you don’t want to make the mistake of having to adjusting the price of your products upwards after making the mistake of not having a sufficient profile margin. Will your products still be competitive to those benchmark brands that you said you want to compete with?   

Just to be more active on my end can i still formulate the gentle cleanser for dry skin something similar to LaRoche Posay and give 50 ml samples for people to try; give to 30 people and give them surveys as well and also give 50 ml of the cleansing oil to 30 pople either the same people or other people. So at least they can answer the survey and also give feedback in regards to my two cleansers: the oil and the gentle water based cleanser like Laroche.So with their feedback ill know what works more oil or the other and ill know what to improve/ do you think this is a good plan?  

It’s up to you if you want to do that. However keep in mind for the below that you have mentioned before and not make the mistake when surveying. 

I watched one day a video on Youtube on what is a product market fit and they said that product market fit is found when people buy your prodiuct not when they fill in a survey or when they say they will buy through your survey; 

They also said survey are used when you already have a target audience and and want to create a new product. Not when you’re starting out and have a product you want to test.

Searching, asking question to people whether they will buy or not will never show you the real picture.  You’ll learn more by going out there (on- or offline), sharing your product with others and talking with them.

Who your target is, you’ll learn by doing. Why they will (or will not) purchase, you’ll learn by doing. What you need to do next, you’ll learn by doing.

[jemolian]

It’s mainly the surfactants + humectants. The Glyceryl Oleate will also give it a slightly moisturizing effect. 

My foaming face wash is just made with the mild foaming surfactants + propanediol + preservative.  

[jemolian]

Im noticing they all come in big sizes.But as a new brand can i go with smaller size to test? 

Sure

what do you mean when you said that being more price competitive is not your best choice/Are you saying my price should be a slightly higher than the prices i just gave above?

You should ask yourself, what is the point of duplicating a similar product compared to those products? Can you out compete in costing / profit margin / marketing? 

As you mentioned, why should people buy your product over the name brand products? So what is your diffentiating factor? Why chooses your products compared to your competitors even if they don’t choose the name brand products? 

 by standing out and differentiating myself- can this be through an ingredient that is not present in the laroche for example or avene or cerave or cetaphil? how else can i be different? 

This is up to you to decide. I believe I had given some references in my previous comments. There are many ways to differentiate yourself. You need to decide what that is and how you can translate that into your products to let customers understand your brand and product value. 

[jemolian]

when the product lathers too much; this means there is a high concentration of surfactant and thus not suitable for dry skins right? So fr dry and senstive skin does it mean the surfactant dosage should be kept minimal? 

Some surfactants foam more, some less. Less surfactants are better but it can depend on the mildness of the surfactants. People just want effective cleansing while having sufficient mildness. You can test out what that is with different combination / product types. 

Toleriane by LaRoche Posay
AQUA / WATER • ETHYLHEXYL PALMITATE • GLYCERIN • DIPROPYLENE GLYCOL • CARBOMER • SODIUM HYDROXIDE • CAPRYL GLYCOL / CAPRYLYL GLYCOL • ETHYLHEXYLGLYCERIN
There are no active ingredients above right? Though people rave about it; so this means the great result is only delivered by the fillers right? So does this give me a margin to offer an imrpoved version and add some actives like ceramides, hyaluronic acid, and argan oil and put rose water instead of plain water ? can i add oil? 

This is basically a lotion, there’s no surfactants. People can still cleanse with this. Avene also has a similar cleanser with this concept if I recall correctly. 
Putting actives only increases your cost. As previously mentioned, for cleansing products you can reduce your actives since they are washed off. 

Cetaphil gentle cleanser
Water, Glycerin, Cetearyl Alcohol, Panthenol, Niacinamide, Pantolactone, Xanthan Gum, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Benzoate, Citric Acid
Here again i dont see any active ingredient but only filler ingredients. tHE ONLY ACTIVE is niacinamide. 

There is panthenol.

either i offer the same product at a lower price point or develop a superior premium product at luxury price point:so does that mean adding more luxrious ingredeints? 

This is up to you. The price point of those products you referred shouldn’t be that expensive, so fighting a price war by being more price competitive is not your best choice if you are starting out. I’ll recommend standing out and differentiating your product in another way. You have to think about it yourself. As mentioned the surveying helps if you know what people have issues with when using similar products. 

[jemolian]

when i read online i saw that FOAMS btw are for oily skins, gel same oily and acne prone; jelly same. So this make me understand tht either all Moroccan girls ahve oily skin and im the only one whp has dry skin or this makes me think that the milk and cleansing cream are not good enough because these i dont find them much. I want to adress the needs of dry skins and want to give them something thqt cleanser without having the tightening sensqtion when they cleanse. Can a gel be made for dry skins? 

It depends on your formulation. A cleanser can be changed to different types by adding different ingredients. Foam can be referred to soap or saponified cleansers or that they lather up very well to a fine foam, gel cleansers can also do the same or some doesn’t lather at all. 

My skin is on the dry side but I have also made a foam cleanser in a foam pump bottle, and have also made a cleansing milk / lotion. It’s how you formulate your cleanser, how you intend for it to perform, and who you intend the potential users to be. I can add some gum or thickener to my foam cleanser formulation and make it into a gel and it still works the same. 

[jemolian]

So the more popular product in geenral or the more popular cleanser since im talking in this discussion about cleansing oil/So this means i choose the most popular cleanser and go do that; right? 

As mentioned, this is up to you. The popular product refers to the one that sells the best for your demographic whatever that is. 

Then you mentioned that it depends on the surfactant.So if i use Polysorbate 80 would that be good for dry skins?  

No point asking me since it depends on your brand concept and product performance results you are trying to achieve. 

They also said survey are used when you already have a target audience and and want to create a new product. Not when you’re starting out and have a product you want to test.

Surveying can do both things as it depends on what you are trying to find out. I believe my previous comments would have mentioned. 

[jemolian]

Besides from Trends, you can also consider seeing some forecasts using the Google Ads Keyword Planner tool. 

Though for research purposes, the platform of choice where your potential customers look for products can vary. Which is why it should be asked in your survey. Some people may search for products in social media platforms which won’t be tracked by Google.

[jemolian]

So is it possible to include electrolytes to my cleansing oil? 

Just leave it in a toner. 

But gel or foam cleansers are best  for oily to acne prone skin they are not suitable for dry and senstive skin

It depends on the surfactant and/or blend formulated, also the active surfactant matter percentage. 

So i learned recently when i started my skincare business that cleansing oil and balms have the advantage of suiting all skin type from oily to combo skin

Again it depends on the formulation. I was talking to one of my staff the last few days, she told me that she prefers the current cleansing balm over the old one she used before because it’s more moisturizing. The older one is used was slightly drying. 

The end results can always vary and you can formulate accordingly. 

shall i go to gel cleanser or cleansing balm ( which are popular) or should i keep the cleansing oil? 

If you decided that your role is to sell, then go with the more popular. If you want to sell by educating, it’s also up to you. Just that it would be a longer route and will take time. It’s up to you to decide what the factors you want to determine your goals and sales are. 

Taking an action is sometimes better at making you learn a lesson than always procrastinating at the idea. 

[jemolian]

Hmm, it depends if you can find the benefits of the floral water to market. You can take the examples from the Korean products. Normally the korean products newadays may include certain plant extract solutions at a high percentage. Those are marketed as essences. 

It still really depend on what the overall formulation is. If it’s floral water with petals (bug food) like the Kiehl’s Calendula Toner, the floral water might make sense, haha. If not, i’m not too sure if hydrosols attract customers that much by themselves since they might not have particularly attractive / trendy constituents besides from the fragrance. 

[jemolian]

I also tested it at about 2.5-3%, specifically the butter pearls, i didn’t particularly observe significant thickening in my moisturizer ? But it seem to be breaking me out slightly compared to the other C10-18 Triglycerides.  

Regarding the gelling agent for this post i’m wondering if the ones from MSR would be workable at what viscosity.
https://www.myskinrecipes.com/shop/en/277-oil-gelling-agent

[jemolian]

I tried at about 10% & 15%, but not sure if will be that opaque at 1-2%, probably cloudy. 

[jemolian]

can butter pearls increase oil viscosity without making the oil opaque or cloudy?

No. 

 

[jemolian]

So what are the diff ways to engage with customers? are surveys one way? what could be others? 

Basically it’s just creating conversations with them. You can google the methods, surveying is just the main one.

why would the target audience use a cleansing oil and not a balm and here you said it boils down to branding, i need to create attractive branding to sell.

The long term sales depends on customer preferences. Branding or marketing can only get them to try the product.

So in that case i should first ask people what do they cleanse their face with cus if no one for instance ( extreme case) no one uses a cleansing oil do you think with solid marketing and branding i ll be able to sell sthg that no one uses? 

Whether the branding and marketing can get them to buy the product and use it long term depends on whether it makes sense for them to use it. 

[jemolian]

What other ways can i use to gauge there is a demand for my cleansing oil aside from survey that are not expensive?  

The other way that is not expensive is to talk to someone that already knows the answer you need.

Then you said Or choose one your brand concept stands for.Im not sure i understand what you mean ” choose one my brand stands for? 

This is open for interpretation. If you don’t get it then there’s not much need to look to deep into this.

so if i interview 30 girls and all say we use cleansing oil then no need to do a balm and vice versa right? 

Yes. 

Potential pattern & frequency of product usage ( WHY IS this important Jemolian please ?)

This affect the demand of the product. If they don’t use it as often, you don’t need to produce such as large batch. 

Global or local events affecting product usage and sales due to user requirements ( can you pls give an example? )

It’s already part of my story / analogy. 

So here you mean i should analyze their answers and based on that decide on which product i will develop: a balm or an oil correct?

Yes. At this point, you are just circling around the idea too much. I’m not sure why you are doing that. 

You said i can target Gen z if my product fits their needs and budget.But we know in marketing that by trying to sell to everyone you end up selling to none. 

Realistically if you sell to none, then there’s no demand for your product. If product can appeal to different people, sometimes outside of your target demographic. If the percentage of those people increase, you are telling me that you don’t intend to market to them to increase sales? 

This is the part where i’m stuck the most? Should i go ahead and make a small batch and test the market or should I as per @Jemolian survey the audience then make the product? 

It’s up to you. If you insist on launching the cleansing oil, you can go ahead to find a suitable place to distribute the samples and get feedback. If you want to plan the development, you can survey then provide the samples to the survey group. 

even if i request feedback they might say things that will make me happy such as : oh i loved your oil but in reality they didnt. Imagine if i go ahead and produce based on their positive yet misleading feedback.

It depends on the people and culture. You should know your people well enough. 

Because people could try my product but this is not an indicator as to whether there is a demand for the product. They are trying for free not buying. Im trying to think of it from different angles to be as efficient as possible:) 

Which is why you survey the people before you given them any samples if you intend to. Then give them the sample, if that is next step, then survey again.