[JackDerrington]

Thanks Perry,

Going to try two formulations with XG at 1% and 2%.

Does it usually hold up well up to 50c?

And yes, ditto on the packaging… However the client already has them so trying to figure out a way for it to work before telling them to get new packaging. Thanks!

[JackDerrington]

Perry said:

To get  a useful answer you need to give more information about the composition of your formula.

Hey Perry,

It’s a moisturizing cream with:

65-70% Waters
5% Cetearyl Alcohol / Polysorbate 60
3% Cetyl Alcohol
6-7% Butters (Shea, Cocoa, etc.)
12-13% oils including Menthol
0.5% Xanthan Gum

Hope this helps, thanks in advance! The requirements are for it to hold a higher viscosity under high heat due to the packaging.

[JackDerrington]

We have a simple freezer and an incubator ($300 or so, small) that we use for freeze/thaw and heat stability (40c, 50c, etc.)

I’d also love to get into in-house challenge testing. Anyone with ideas on how we can begin would be great. Thanks!

[JackDerrington]

Hi all,

A quick update. I did about 6 samples so far. The best so far has been Xanthan Gum at 0.5%, with PEG-40 at 3% to assist with emulsion.

Still doing some heat studies… there are some very specific heat requirements due to the geographic area where the product is going and the storage conditions.

HEC did quite well, but Xanthan Gum did better. I tried combining the two but XG and PEG-40 have worked the best so far. It passed the initial 40c tests and moving forward to higher temperatures.

Thanks for your assistance, I will be posting photographs of the different samples and separations to assist anyone else who may have this issue in the future.

Jack

PS The pH is quite low (in the 3’s/4’s). Do you think this could be contributing to the separation?

[JackDerrington]

@EVchem, that sounds like a good idea. Would you recommend keeping my existing waxes at their current levels, but replace some water phase with the polymeric emulsifiers?

Would adding much more Polysorbate 60, for example, help with this? I am going to do a lot of testing.

[JackDerrington]

Thanks @letsalcido,

Extra info: Because of the smaller volume in R&D, these samples are being agitated by a stick blender.

Do you think the extra 15% added post-formulation could result in the entire water/oil phase separation?

I am trying to isolate whether the formula breaks on its own at 40c because of lack of a water phase thickener like Xanthan Gum, or because the 15% was too much and broke the entire emulsification system.

I don’t believe the 15% substance is rich in electrolytes. It’s mainly water, with a small percent of an oil extract. (It’s its own emulsion).

They can’t be added in the cooldown phase due to legality of where the original cream is originating, and where it’s being sent and having that 15% added.

Thanks!

[JackDerrington]

Hi all,

A quick update. It seems as though the product is completely separating at 40~c. (Not just the 15%).

[JackDerrington]

@Abbot, thanks for the recommendation. Any ultrasonic blender recommendations?

Also, I can lower the oil content if that will work better. I only need about 2%-3% oil… I was following a study that was done, that’s why my oil was higher. But it can be much lower. The flavoring and hemp oil marketing being done for this product can be satisfied with under 3% oils.

@natiyo123, thanks for your recommendation. I’ll give that process a try.

@Pharma, which tween would you recommend I start experimenting with? Also, tweens are edible, correct? (I will research this of course).

I am awaiting my lecithin to be delivered. Thanks for the assistance everyone, I will post updates as I make progress on this formulation. (Two separate formulations, really).

[JackDerrington]

Thank you gentlemen. I will look for pure lecithin.

Matt: Apologies, we do use two pots and heat them both, and we are currently adding the oil to the water while being blended.

So Pot 1: Water, Lecithin, Xanthan Gum

Pot 2: Oils

Pot 2 into Pot 1. (Oil into Water while agitating)

The sweetener in this product is Stevia. There’s another formula I am trying with Sucralose, though.

The initial emulsion (and after being shaken/agitated) is great, tastes great, hits all the marks. It just breaks and grows mold (lol). I will get my hands on different lecithin and will also play around with the pH to get it acidic and go from there.

Thanks all.

[JackDerrington]

Pharma said:

Try to add lecithin to water and wait for several hours at room temperature so it can hydrate properly. However, the data (or rather lack thereof) you provided for your liquid lecithin aren’t helping.

Regarding preservation: I’d use a blend. Depends if you want it ‘natural’, ‘alternative’, or are okay with ‘traditional’… traditional would give you most safety.

pH won’t affect taste (you’re eating your emulsion?) but it might affect emulsion stability (to better or worse remains to be seen).

@Pharma, thanks for your input. I’ll try some different versions of Lecithin and see if there’s one with a lot more information.

And yes this emulsion is a sprayable edible product, which is why I had the question about Citric Acid affecting flavor.

Also, the product being edible informs the answer to your preservative question. It has to be edible. Other than that, I don’t have a preference.

Thanks!

[JackDerrington]

EVchem said:

potassium sorbate can only help protect your product when the pH is 5.5 or lower. You need to add citric acid or the like and check the pH of your final product. Also you probably want to do more like 0.2-0.3% potassium sorbate, and couple it  with maybe sodium benzoate 

Thanks for the input. I will start experimenting with this. Is there another substance I can use to lower the PH that won’t affect taste?

[JackDerrington]

Hey all,

Thanks for your input.

Details: I am using this liquid lecithin in the tests.

Process:

1. Add Lecithin and Xanthan Gum to water.

2. Heat

3. Blend together.

4. Add oil while blending.

5. Add preservative when cooled.

Initially the emulsion seems strong. There is separation over the next few hours (photograph attached):

Then, after a few days mold growth is detected.

@Pharma what ingestible preservative would you recommend in this system?

@Belassi What oil/emulsifier balance do you recommend? I don’t need as much oil as this system contains, but I based it on a successful study that I had found in research. I believe I need less than 10% oil to put the flavoring and other essential oils into the system.

For what it’s worth, I have a version with orange essential oil and peppermint essential oil. The peppermint had growth much more quickly than the orange. I assume this is the PH issue you are talking about.

Thanks all.

[JackDerrington]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the suggestions, ideas, and dialogue. 

Recent Update:

36 hours later, the latest change (original formula with different agitation) seems to have solved the issue.

@tanelise

I generally seal the jars when the cream is relatively warm (80-90f)

@JonahRay Thanks for this suggestion. I did try another container with the same results before (before I posted here). I will definitely keep this in mind in the future though!

@Pharma

Sweet Almond Oil, Avocado Oil, Jojoba Oil, Emu Oil, Sunflower Seed Oil, Hemp/Seed Oil, Vitamin E Oil.

@Zaf

The latest batches I have tried, I get about 4 samples. One of them I put in the fridge, another I keep in a lab kept at around 75f. Similar results with both (the caking). But I will keep in mind what you’re saying about Shea! I will run a batch and cool it quicker (even though we have apparently solved this issue), and let you know the results. I’ll run it with the original Shea level to keep things consistent. You are saying to agitate for a few minutes then put it in the freezer/fridge/icebath, correct? How long to agitate? Thanks!

---

I’ll keep you updated on how things continue at 48 hours and beyond.

In the mean time, can anyone recommend smaller scale but still industrial quality agitators? I will be doing research for this shortly. Thanks again everyone for your time and attention and help.

Cheers,

Jack

[JackDerrington]

Hello all,

Okay last night did an additional test. Using the original formula posted here, I hand-mixed until 85 degrees Fahrenheit and then poured one sample, then poured an additional sample and hand-mixed that individual sample in its individual jar.

Photograph: On the left, just poured the sample in. On the right, poured the sample in and mixed with a mixing stick. (There are different amounts, I didn’t split it appropriately but I believe the texture/caking issue shouldn’t be affected by a difference in volume).

 
I will be trying some more formulas using different agitators to see if that’s the problem. I will update after the usual 24 hours or so, or whenever any caking becomes apparent in any of the samples.

Jack

[JackDerrington]

Hi all,

28 hours later update:

Both samples have the same caking issue. Photos below.

1. Shea Butter 2%, Stearic Aid 1%. Still caking/pasting. I am beginning to wonder if it’s the way the formula is being agitated after combining water and oil phases. In this photograph, I just dipped my finger into the cream and removed it, revealing the cakey/patchy texture below.

===============

2. Stearic Acid 0%. Shea Butter 7%. (Shea Butter at original percent). In this photograph, I used quite a bit of the cream to reveal more of the cakey texture below.

Both of these have become cakey and airy. I am beginning to think it may be an issue with how it is mixed or added to the container? What do you think?

================

3. After very little stirring with a wooden stick, the cream immediately reverts to a nice creamy texture. This is why I am getting a feeling it may not be a formulation issue?

Thanks all for your help and ideas!

Jack

[JackDerrington]

Hi All,

Thanks so much for the assistance. I have done two more test samples. Right now (as with the rest of the creams), the texture is almost as desired and will probably reach it within the day. But we will see how it works in the next 24-48hrs.

Images for reference:

1. Demonstrating how the samples are sealed: Cream in, Inner Liner applied, Lid sealed.

2. The texture of the cream is relatively smooth.  A little more solid and it will reach the desired texture (I expect this to happen today).

3. I tried two new formulas to solve this problem. I eliminated all the stearic acid in one trial, and reduced the Shea butter to 2% in another (replaced with oil) while keeping the Stearic Acid at 1%.

We will see. Please let me know if you have any other suggestions! I am getting a new batch of Xanthan Gum in soon, and will try to neutralize the Stearic Acid in further tests if this proves unsuccessful as @Chemist77 suggested.

Thanks everyone. Will update soon.

[JackDerrington]

@ozgirl

Thank you for your response. Yes, each jar is immediately covered/sealed with a lid.

Three photos below:

(Apologies, the photographs posted out of order)

#3 Shows some of the cakey quality. It’s not creamy. However, if I mix it up, it returns back to a creamier texture. I will attach photos below after some casual mixing.

#2/#4 Shows after a little crude/casual stirring, it becomes a little creamier again. (More consistent and stable?)

#1 Shows the lid that has been on this sample since it was poured.

Thanks for any ideas or input. I am going to do a bunch of tests to figure out what needs to be changed, but any suggestions would be appreciated to accelerate this process.

Thanks!

Jack

[JackDerrington]

@ngarayeva001
Thanks for your input!

We did formulate without the aloe and extract and the end result was still cakey. I don’t know if there is a common culprit when it comes to caking, like not enough emulsifier or a bad balance.

[JackDerrington]

@Herbnerd & @Pharma & @Entropic_Cocci

Thanks for your input. We haven’t started on this yet but I will definitely try what you’ve suggested.

You are right, it would be an oral product that a client is requesting.

Thank you!

[JackDerrington]

Hello everyone. I’ve recently been beginning doing some formulations for a few clients on a small basis. I’ve read some posts here and there are some extremely helpful individuals, and the course on this site looks very good. Thanks!