[IrinaTudor]

@pma a CAS number helps when one is not sure about the nomenclature. Do you mean benzaldehyde dimethyl acetal CAS 1125-88-8? And do you mean using this as a fragrance material combined with a another fragrance material that smells of roses? What is your end product?

[IrinaTudor]

Thank YOU so much, Perry, for building this wonderful community and for being such an inspiration!

Wishing you all and your loved ones a great 2015! (*)

[IrinaTudor]

Perry, good points. 

I do remember the 2 interviews with the great Johann Wiechers that was working on a formulator based on science of adding such actives & appropriate vehicles to skin care. From what he was explaining the above combo could be beneficial?

FYI on Johann Wiechers

https://chemistscorner.com/podcast-episode-002-dr-johann-wiechers-interview/

https://chemistscorner.com/formulating-for-efficacy-software-podcast-johann-wiechers-podcast-022/

https://chemistscorner.com/memories-of-a-cosmetically-disturbed-mind-book-review/

https://chemistscorner.com/the-best-formulation-software-options-for-cosmetic-chemists/

[IrinaTudor]

While I totally agree with Perry, there is 1 segment in the cosmetic industry that can benefit from trade secrets and uniqueness and that is fragrance. Smell sells  

(thus the higher development costs and royalty fees would also make sense in this segment)

[IrinaTudor]

Why would you @Belassi? Do you think more people will buy it because it is a ‘smell alike’?

Yes, you might get in trouble, but it depends on your customers and advertisement. 

You may call your shampoo ‘Forever soft’ or something like that and in small letters add ‘smells like Eternity TM by CK TM’. And even then CK may ask you to remove any content that is linked to their brand.

I would say: ask your lawyer first and then ask your customers

hth

[IrinaTudor]

@nasrins, you can contact me via any of the 2 websites mentioned below in my signature. Please note that my advice here is free, but for specific matters you can email me for a personalized quote

[IrinaTudor]

@nasrins I don’t have to as I ensure that both my fragrance and my cosmetic product are well designed for their purpose in the first place. So then as a whole they always pass any stability test.

When testing new cosmetic or fragrance raw materials I have a database of well designed and proven stable formulations. I then add the new material and do a split test, thus measuring differences. Those measurements always include changes in hedonics, odor intensity, odor diffusion, pH, viscosity, appearance, texture, color and any other physical properties that are important to the end use.

I have designed a special chart based on a scientific approach and experience.

I am working on a book on the subject so I hope to make this available to everyone in the near future.

But for now, this is all I can disclose

[IrinaTudor]

I’m sorry @nasrins, I was confused by your answer above:

I quote

‘ “Did you do a stability test of the unscented product?” really no I didnt. ‘

‘Fragrance’ is not 1 raw material, unless you use 1 raw fragrance material like a single molecule substance that is used to fragrance a product.  For example vanillin is a single fragrance raw material.

If your ‘fragrance’ is a blend then each of the single molecules could interfere on many levels with each and every of your other raw cosmetic materials.

That is why it is hard to do a general stability test of fragrance as it is dependent on what materials is made of and how they interact with the rest of the formula and your finished product. The pH range is for example a property that will influence how your fragrance preforms. Fragrance can also influence viscosity. 

Due to polarity issues, if your finished product is mostly polar (as you said that it contains 90% water) and knowing that most fragrances are non-polar, that will give you solubility thus separation issues. 

So you will need to add solubilizers like polysorbates.

But there are many many ways to deal with such problems and most come down to a trial and error test like I have described above. And no easy ways, I’m afraid.

[IrinaTudor]

You should (run a stability test before assuming that your fragrance is the culprit).

Some comments on your formula:

is guar, guar gum?

poly7, polyquaternium 7?

Combining quats & guar gum will only work if you use Cationic guar gum.

Then there might be a solubility issue with your oils and emulsifying agents. Adding in the silicones I think your % of emulsifiers is too low.

With material, I mean each raw cosmetic material other than water. 

Make a batch with just 90% water + 9% behentrimonium chloride + 1% fragrance and see if there are issues.

Do the same with water + behentrimonium chloride + 1 oil + fragrance

etc etc.

Now it seems like you’re just adding raw materials randomly.

Start easy from scratch and understand (study on and read about) each and every raw material you add before actually making batches and worrying about stability protocols.

This blog has very easy well balanced formula’s for any beginner. And it explains the chemistry behind it in plain terms.

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.nl/p/hair-care.html

Here it illustrates how to make a hair mask with lots of oils, see the % of emulsifiers? 

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.nl/2011/05/duplicating-products-ojon-revitalizing.html

Good luck!

[IrinaTudor]

@nasrins Please expand on your stability protocol. Did you do a stability test of the unscented product?

Only then you will know if the culprit is fragrance or something else.

Also did you gather information from your supplier if your fragrance is compatible with your end product (a hair mask) and/or your raw materials?

If you add ‘ready made blends’ that are sold to you without any specs, then you will need to do the trial-error testing yourself (adding 1% of the fragrance blend to each material 1 on 1 and see what happens, then add 1% of the fragrance blend to a mixture of 2 materials, etc. etc.).

Or you can design your own fragrance by using only single molecule fragrance materials that have been proven to be stable when used together with your specific raw materials and the pH of the end product.

Again for this kind of information you depend on your fragrance supplier.

hth

p.s. it also helps if you post your formula here so that we can see if the formula itself looks good to begin with.

[IrinaTudor]

I spotted an error about my number of students that can enroll in ISIPCA, I meant 15-35 students a year, they have increased their number over the years (and their fees

[IrinaTudor]

@Susulee, there is no age limit at ISIPCA. They do have a numerus fixus on how many students can enroll, just 15 students a year.

@MarkBroussard: excellent advice! Get an internship, do your master thesis on fragrance chemistry and take as many cross-university courses on fragrance chemistry as you can. Grasse has an innovation incubator institute on research in fragrance.

http://www.investincotedazur.com/fr/sites/grasse/

http://www.investincotedazur.com has more of such research sites.

[IrinaTudor]

Bonsoir Susulee

How exciting!

I would recommend going for the organic chemistry & analysis major as that would be most helpful in the fragrance industry where fragrance chemistry plays a big role.

It also gives you an advantage in applying for 

https://www.isipca.fr/

Meanwhile if you need some pointers regarding practical training, please don’t hesitate and contact me, see below for details.

[IrinaTudor]

I’m sorry to hear about the irritation, @MarkBroussard! And great input @Bobschemist, thank you.

I myself suffer from eczema and allergies so I am really careful especially with all naturals as those contain most and highest % of allergens.

Not all citrus is created equal though, and most are irreplaceable in terms of olfactory value. I would say: stay away from cold pressed peel citrus oils, try the steam distilled ones and terpeneless ones. Bergamot bergaptene free oils is one of my favorites together with petitgrain for use in fine fragrances and colognes.

For sensitive skin face cleansers, avoid foamy washes and use instead alcohol free creamy cleansers with bisabolol. 

[IrinaTudor]

You’re welcome @milliachemist.

Thank you for chiming in @Bobzchemist.

Blanketed or not I think using citrus oils high in limonene content in a cosmetic product intended for the face is not the best idea, due to high risk of sensitization. d-Limonene is for example a common industrial degreaser, so it will dry-out the skin as well, increasing risk of sensitization and photo-toxicity.

There are far more compatible fragrance solutions for face products out there than citrus essential oils. 

For example a light orange blossom with citrus nuances aromachemical like nerol would be a more suitable option.

[IrinaTudor]

@MarkBroussard, before I can give you accurate advice, first a few questions for you: what is the reason that you chose citrus essential oils as fragrances? Why these particular citrus oils? Do you have information from your suppliers regarding use, chemical properties and allergens?

[IrinaTudor]

@milliachemist there you go: that is the biggest issue, using something that is just labeled ‘vanilla’. Would you make a shampoo with something from a bottle called ‘makes foam’?

Step number 1 when incorporating fragrances in your cosmetic formulations, treat the fragrance mix the same as your other ingredients. Buy from a respectable supplier that can provide you with accurate information on use, stability, physical and chemical information (spec sheet), allergen declaration and if it is a natural, a chemical analysis.

If this is not possible then invest in working with single aromachemicals. For example pure vanillin crystals. If you need help with tracking a supplier for that, please lmk.

Step number 2: the discoloration of vanillin is due to its chemical structure: it contains both an aldehyde and a phenolic group. Both are very prone to oxidation. This problem has been resolved in a number of ways.

-by synthesis of vanilla smelling aromachemicals that either shield the aldehydic or the phenolic group. These new molecules can be used with minimal discoloration and are called Isobutavan and Ultravanil. 

-a patent was released in 2008 that shows very good results with adding water-soluble sulfites to the formulation.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20080305976

Step number 3: adjust your pH to an acidic range

Step number 4: avoid ingredients that will react with the vanillin like ammonia, primary and secondary amines, amino acids, protein hydrolysates, proteins, ammonium-type surfactants, reactive methylene emollient esters, mercaptans, oxidizing ingredients and aldehyde-reactive additives like dihydroxyacetone, alcohols,  alpha-hydroxy acids (AHAs), ammonium lauryl sulfate or ammonium laureth sulfate, protein hydrolysates (almost always rich in amino acids)

Step number 5: if formulating alkaline bar soaps or the like, avoid acetyl acetonate esters, malonate esters, phenyl acetic acid esters and other similar emollient esters and use chelating agents like EDTA to bind alkali metals

Step number 6: minimize oxidation by minimizing exposure of the surface of the product to air and light. Use airless, opaque dispensers for liquids, opaque glass/plastics for solids and powders (talcum is a bad combo with vanillin)

Step number 7: use colorants like whiteners (TiO2) or experiment with pigments that can handle the brown, like reds.

Step number 8: own it: incorporate the discoloration in the marketing story. Use grounded vanilla beans for a more ‘artisanal’ look or add a chocolate or coffee fragrance so that the color is congruent with what consumers would expect of the smell

I hope this helps.

[IrinaTudor]

That’s a good question.

The sad answer is: you can’t prevent it all together. Vanillin (single molecule that has the typical vanilla sugar odor) will always discolor.

But there are other fragrance raw materials one could use that still smell sweet vanilla like but don’t discolor as much.

The most important question I have for you in order to solve this is:

do you use single molecules fragrance raw materials or mixtures?

If mixtures: do you know their exact composition?

If yes or no, please add what influences that choice.

(I have a meeting to attend to now so I’ll get back to you later today or tomorrow with more)

[IrinaTudor]

Jeez Louise

Well I’m writing a 2 volumes textbook on the subject

Just to give you an idea how vast and intricate this subject is.

I would suggest: pick a very specific instance where you’ve experienced problems and we’ll go from there?

(trying to make it as easy as possible for everyone interested, including beginners)

[IrinaTudor]

Yes, I did try this product. Not on my own hair and scalp (I suffer from eczema & allergies) but on some willing volunteers. It’s a product that it’s very messy, it has a very unattractive feel (slimy), ugly color (swap green gray) and major rinse-off problems. The only good thing, as most Lush products, it smells good

I would say pick a bench mark scalp conditioner formula and tweak it to your liking. You’ll be better off. 

Here you go, for example

http://www.happi.com/contents/view_formulary/2008-05-01/hair-scalp-creme-moisturizer/

[IrinaTudor]

Sure, no problem, I just opened a new discussion here:

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/652/functional-fragrances-issues-incorporating-fragrance-into-cosmetic-products

[IrinaTudor]

@milliachemist, this would make such a lovely and interesting topic, so maybe start a new discussion and we’ll discuss?

[IrinaTudor]

p.s. This is one of my favorite YouTube video’s on polar vs non-polar chemistry from CrashCourse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVL24HAesnc

[IrinaTudor]

Did someone call?

@Akshay glad it worked out

@nasrins, please feel free to open a new topic on the fragrance matter.

1 quick piece of advice: never add water to an alcohol solution, that’s asking for trouble (due to polarity> solubility issues, most fragrance raw materials are not soluble in water).

[IrinaTudor]

While I totally agree with Perry and others that this claim and such claims in general might be just adding to the pile of fear mongering against chemicals, there is a little bit of truth to avoiding adding food ingredients to cosmetics. 

Not long ago there was this news article about a woman going into anaphylactic shock because of using a cream containing goat milk. Turned out she was severely allergic to goat milk. 

http://www.aaaai.org/global/latest-research-summaries/New-Research-from-JACI-In-Practice/goat-milk-moisturizer.aspx

I think that if you’re allergic to peanuts you shouldn’t use a cosmetic containing peanut oil. 

The thing with allergies is that a (potentially sensitizing) ingredient you never had problem with, but used during a long period of time, could lead to a full on allergy.