[Gunther]

Maybe you can find some kind of naturally occurring gum that can provide some hold as the solvent evaporates?
i.e. Acacia (gum arabic) comes to mind.

While oils and waxes can provide some mild hold, they will always be difficult to wash out as they are not water soluble.

[Gunther]

Why not just add something like behentrimonium or cetrimonium as the main emulsifier?

Is that a cream leave on conditioner? I believe 20% dimethicone will make it to thick to spray.

IMO get rid of the Mg-sulfate.
It does nothing and being a salt it will just destabilize the emulsion.
Also, salts can leave white residues when leave-on products dry.

What’s the Propylene Glycol purpose?
I believe it can be removed out too.

[Gunther]

Oral Vitamin C megadoses were already tried in the 70s, and no positive effects on skin were noticed, despite absorption being guaranteed in oral products, unlike topical products.

Vitamin C does nothing beneficial to the skin.

[Gunther]

Janhavi said:

Hello All, I am from a non chemistry background and new to cold process soap making. Many people add fruit/vegetable purees/juices,milk, beer, wine etc. to lye for making lye water. I wish to know if the skin benefitting properties of fruit/vegetable purees/juices,milk, beer, wine etc are retained by doing so or  lost.  Should these food items be added  after saponification? Thanks. 

They might have a chance in (leave on) skin creams
but not in soaps, because they are in contact with the skin only for a really short time.

[Gunther]

Aziz said:

Does CAPB destabilize dimethicone shampoo also ?

It depends on what the surfactant is.
For typical SLES based shampoos, dimethicone is solubilized (emulsified?) by dodecylbenzene sulfonates or ethoxylated alcohols.

And no, CAPB doesn’t seem to destabilize those formulations as much.
I believe it has to do with SLES shampoos being mostly a solution with only a minor part of it being an emulsion holding small amounts of silicone in place,
as compared to cationic conditioner formulas where all of it is an emulsion, as needed to hold large amounts of (nonethoxylated) fatty alcohols (i.e. cetyl or cetoesterayl alcohols) in place.

But cationic formulations are WAY more conditioning than anionic or nonionic ones so they’re worth trying, IMO.

[Gunther]

Maybe it is low quality LABSA is ladden with free sulfuric acid:

Linear alkyl benzene sulphonate obtained by sulphonation of LAB with sulphur trioxide gas contains minimum free sulphuric acid and is preferred to LABS obtained from oleum sulphonation that has a higher proportion of free sulphuric acid. Free sulphuric acid present precipitates as sodium sulphate increasing the inorganic content of the product and thereby reducing the

cloud point of the final product.
http://sitaramdixit.synthasite.com/resources/Laundry%20detergents%20-%20Moving%20from%20solid%20to%20liquid.pdf

[Gunther]

Belassi said:

Dehyton G is amphoteric and gives good foam, you could try that?

Thanks. I will see if it’s available here.

CAPB seems to destabilize the cationic emulsion more than any other surfactant. I wonder if it’s because its salt content.

[Gunther]

PVP K30 and K-90 provide strong hold and can be easily washed away as they’re water soluble.
But I don’t know if they’re oil soluble. They’re alcohol soluble, though.

[Gunther]

ngarayeva001 said:

@Gunther 

INCI	%
Aqua	80.5%
Amodimethicone (emulsion)	5.0%
PEG-8 Dimethicone	7.0%
Polyquat 7	1.5%
Glycerin	3.0%
Polyquat 10	1.0%
Cetrimonium Chloride (30%)	1.0%
Germaben II	1.0%

Very conditioning spray. I even think I need to make it less conditioning because it’s not easy to apply like that.

Maybe some extra CETAC can further lower the viscosity?
How much net active Amodimethicone the emulsion contains?

Interesting formula. I will try replicating it.
I’m surprised that so much PQ-10 doesn’t leave a sticky residue on hair. But at the end you have to try the formula yourself.

[Gunther]

@Aziz may I ask what’s the intended application?

If it’s for manual dishwashing
then a shampoo-like formula will work fine with much less irritation and cloudiness problems than LABSA.
SLES as the main surfactant, followed by a smaller amount of SLS (or neutralized LABSA), CAPB and even CDEA.

If it’s for liquid laundry or institutional dishwashing
Then LABSA 10-12%, SLES 4-8% and a small amount of CAPB (but not salt) will work fine.

Try to get the Certificate of Analysis from the suppliers to check their purities and concentration.
LABSA batches shouldn’t change color, and all those I’ve seen are dark brown, albeit with slighltly different hues.

[Gunther]

This one felt nicely conditioning with mild cleaning as desired but it has almost no foam:

Phase A.
Water 60%
Polyquaternium 0.7%
Triethanolamine 0.05%
Heat and stir

Phase B
Add the following ingredients to Phase A in the listed order
EDTA Na-4 0.1%
Methylparaben 0.3%
Propylparaben 0.105%
BTMS-50 5%
CETAC solution 2%

Phase C
Laureth-9 (ethoxylated lauryl alcohol-9EO) 3%
Dimethicone 350  0.75%
Dow Amodimethicone 8087  0.75%
Premix and stir
Add phase C to A+B while heating and stirring

Dehyton-K  10% (3% active CAPB)
Protelan LS-9011 10% (3% active Na-lauroyl sarcosinate)
Cocamide DEA 1%
Cetearyl alcohol 4%
qs with water to compensate for water evaporation when heating
Fragance 0.4%

Phase D
Glycerin 1%
Polyox 0.1%
Premix, and add to the previous phases.

[Gunther]

Pharma said:

@Gunther: Do you have any evidence for that claim?

Effect of cetostearyl alcohol on stabilization of oil-in-water emulsion: I. Difference in the effect by mixing cetyl alcohol with stearyl alcohol

Abstract

It is known that an oil-in-water emulsion increases in consistency and stability on addition of cetostearyl alcohol. When either cetyl alcohol or stearyl alcohol was added individually, the emulsion stability decreased. On storage at room temperature, unstable emulsions decreased in consistency and many particles (not visible immediately after preparation) appeared. The particles were determined to be crystals of the alcohol added. When both alcohols were included in the formulation simultaneously in the appropriate ratio, the emulsions were stable and did not show such changes. This difference in stability can be explained in relation to polymorphism of the alcohols.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0021979776901934

[Gunther]

Cetrimonium or behentrimonium is needed both as a hair conditioner, and as en emulsifier for cetyl alcohol.

I actually tried making a clear, no fatty-alcohol spray leave-on conditioner and somehow it doesn’t feel as conditioning as those with fatty alcohols.
I wonder why, but that’s why I found.

Once you have a proper emulsifier you can add silicones, or coconut oil for leave-on conditioners.

If you can find Polyquaternium-10, that’s way more conditioning than PQ-7 but make sure it doesn’t increase viscosity too much.

[Gunther]

Aziz said:

@Gunther

LABSA  8%
NaOH To pH 8.5
EDTA .2%
Na citrate .5%
SLES    4%
SLS  1%
TSP  1%
CDEA   3%
CAPB ( 30%)  4.5 %
NACL 1%
MPS .05%
Perfume. 2%
Colour 
Water to 100 

Add more SLES, but get rid of SLS
You can also add more LABSA with NaOH as required.
Some Ethoxylated alcohol helps with foam too.

Get rid of TSP as phosphates cause eutrophication of rivers and lakes and don’t add anything that LABSA or SLES doesn’t.

Did you cloud test this formulation?
“Cold weather Cloud Testing” can be as simple as putting the formulation in the fridge (without freezing) and see if it clouds on lower temps.
Lots and lots of beginner LABSA formulations cloud at low temps.

Get rid of salt and Na-citrate as they just rise cloud points.

RedPill said:

@Gunther Can we determine LABSA quality with its colour? I have seen Light transparent yellowish to Dark chocolate coloured LABSA.
Can we neutralize LABSA with Pottasium Hydroxide? (KOH) Is there any difference using than Sodium Hydroxide?
I have encountered seperation when adding TKPP with neutralized LABSA. Do you have any knowledge about this issue?

All 95%+ LABSAs I have seen are dark brown.
If it’s yellow then it’s either preneutralized, or diluted.

You can use KOH as it’s supposed to help rise cloud point temps.

I don’t like phosphates.
They cause eutrophication of lakes and rivers and don’t add anything useful to the formula that greener ingredients like LABSA, SLES or ethoxylated alcohols don’t.

[Gunther]

bahey said:

Gunther said:

bahey said:

Hello everyone,
i am working on formula of surface cleaner with disinfectant , but i have found that it’s not good in cleaning specially laminated surfaces and glasses and remain with some residuals
, any suggestions?

formula
 Benzalkonium chloride 0.13 %
tween 80.          1%
Sles.                  2%
fragrance. ( oily )        1%
Ipa.                       8%
water.            Up to 100%

Any suggests ? Does the oil perfume cause this turbidity? 

Many thanks

Anionics like SLES aren’t compatible with quaternary ammonium cationics (benzalconium) as previously stated.

You can try using some ethoxylated alcohol both as as a surfactant, and to solubilize fragrance, hopefully doing away with Tween.

Consider ethanol. While IPA degreases better, it also smells worse than ethyl alcohol does.

Many thanks Gunther for your support.
how many should i add from ethoxylated alcohol ( % ) ?

You should definitely try different amounts yourself to see which one you like better.

While something like 2-3% will clean and foam better, it might leave a soapy residue if it’s not rinsed off.
If it does you’ll need < 1%.

[Gunther]

Cetostearyl alcohol (70:30 mixture of cetyl and stearyl alcohols) is a coemulsifier, it helps make emulsions more stable, while neither cetyl or stearyl alcohols do that on their own.

[Gunther]

Aziz said:

Gunther said:

For the same amount of LABSA (preferably <20% in the final formulation)
try neutralizing it with both NaOH and Sodium carbonate (in proper proportions to each other, so Google LABSA, NaOH and Sodium carbonate molecular weights)

I got a feeling that the strongly alkaline NaOH degrades LABSA, unlike the milder carbonate.

My dish wash is transparent,  thick and stable at 4°C but foam is not so well.  
How to achieve sufficient foam in final product ? 
Which of ingredients degrade foam ? 

What’s the formula like?

[Gunther]

Unlikely as BTMS is also used in skin creams.
What’s the conditioner formula like?
What’s its pH?

[Gunther]

bahey said:

Hello everyone,
i am working on formula of surface cleaner with disinfectant , but i have found that it’s not good in cleaning specially laminated surfaces and glasses and remain with some residuals
, any suggestions?

formula
 Benzalkonium chloride 0.13 %
tween 80.          1%
Sles.                  2%
fragrance. ( oily )        1%
Ipa.                       8%
water.            Up to 100%

Any suggests ? Does the oil perfume cause this turbidity? 

Many thanks

Anionics like SLES aren’t compatible with quaternary ammonium cationics (benzalconium) as previously stated.

You can try using some ethoxylated alcohol both as as a surfactant, and to solubilize fragrance, hopefully doing away with Tween.

Consider ethanol. While IPA degreases better, it also smells worse than ethyl alcohol does.

[Gunther]

Chemist77 said:

@Gunther I just sprinkle PQ-10 in water and a very very low dosage of an alkali which immediately thickens the solution. It is clear as well; based on samples being churned out in the lab, can’t afford overnight and hourly waiting for wetting 🙂

Thank you
May I ask what’s a nice, tiny alkali dosage?
I tried
Water about 50%
PQ-10 0.7%
TEA 0.5%

pH rised to 9, which needed quite a bit of citric acid to bring it back and ended up thickening the end formulation too much (maybe TEA citrate being a salt thickens SLES just as NaCl does)
How much alkali do you tipically use?

ngarayeva001 said:

By the way you don’t even need to wait for several minutes. Just slurry it and add. And then mix. There were no clumps after 5 minutes. I just posted a next day photo because there were air bubbles there on the first day.

Thanks a lot. I will try pouring it right away and then report back.

[Gunther]

RedPill said:

@Gunther Did you overcome this isse? I am also facing the same problem.
Mixed 200ml LABSA with 200 ml water.
Ph balanced approx 7 with 50% caustic solution.
After 8 hours normally we can expect a transparent liquid. But in this case the solution is solid thick white paste.

Some things that help avoiding/managing this:
1 Predilute LABSA with water. Add a water volume/weight at least equal, preferably twice LABSA weight.

2 Predilute solid NaOH in water

3 Always add NaOH solution slowly to the LABSA solution, and never the other way around. It looks like an alkaline pH causes the problem, while an acidic one lessens or avoids it.

4 Don’t add any further NaOH beyond pH 8.

5 You can try slowly neutralizing it with a 20% Sodium carbonate solution. While it generates a lot of bubbles and you must wait for them to dissipate, it’s harder to overshoot pH into the alkaline range with Na2CO3 than with NaOH.

6 Some manufacturers LABSA cloud right when pH gets past 7, despite using Sodium carbonate instead of NaOH. Switching LABSA suppliers is a must then.

7 Don’t add any salt to it, it just rises cloud point.
If you need a thicker product, add more neutralized LABSA, SLES, CAPB or both.

[Gunther]

Chemist77 said:

@Gunther I just sprinkle PQ-10 in water and a very very low dosage of an alkali which immediately thickens the solution. It is clear as well; based on samples being churned out in the lab, can’t afford overnight and hourly waiting for wetting 🙂

What happens if you don’t add an alkali?

[Gunther]

Soda ash is better suited for DIYers since it avoids the risk of using NaOH.
For large scale production, Soda ash will cause lots of bubbles which will need a large tank with an extra space, and may take days to bust.

[Gunther]

ngarayeva001 said:

I just mix it and add right away. How much PQ10, glycerin and water did you use? I am quite surprised and want to run an experiment. I will post a picture.

I left glycerin+PQ10 standing for several hours, so it became solid.
Now I will try adding it to water right after a couple minutes and post back.
Thanks for the suggestion.

[Gunther]

Chemist77 said:

Try a very mild alkaline neutralisation if your formulation isn’t averse to it though you can always adjust the pH at the end. I have observed the same and realised that an immediate and a very mild alkaline neutralisation will help you get a very uniform dispersion. I add it in my hot process shampoo during cool down phase mixed with Methocel 40-202, no issues at all.

Is it normal for it to thicken right after adding the alkali?
I tried
water  50%
Polyquaternium-10  0.7%
TEA  0.5 ml
pH was about 9. Is that OK?

ngarayeva001 said:

This is very strange. I used polyquat 10 of 3 different suppliers and never had issues with it. What I normally do, I slurry it in glycerin like xanthan, then I add it to water (not even 50% but maybe 20) and stir at low speed for 10 minutes. And even when there are some minor clumps they hydrate in the product overnight. Try to slurry it. 4 parts of glycerin to 1 part of polyquat 10.

May I ask for how long do you leave PQ-10 in glycerin?
I left it for several hours, and the slurry became very thick, almost solid with a yellow/brown color.