grapefruit22
Forum Replies Created
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Products mentioned by George are in jars.
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Perry said:I guess the point is not that extracts do nothing (although most don’t), it’s that there are superior, less expensive options.
I agree, the only exception for me are pore-shrinking extracts, I was not able to find a synthetic equivalent.
Cosmetic_Chemist said:Thank you @MarkBroussard, we are trying to charge them upfront with the promise that material will be on hold for their products. The second you mention more money though, everyone’s guard goes up and sometimes this can be the reason we don’t close.It is easier to convince new clients to abide by this but asking existing clients is like banging your head into a wall.
Extracts have usually only 1 year shelf life. They can be sent for re-testing, then this date will be extended, but you cannot be sure. At worst, they will buy 20 kg every year, pay for 20 kg, and throw away 19 kg.
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I have a few Korean products with 1,2-Hexanediol & Ethylhexylglycerin used as a prevention against the growth of microorganisms, they all have PAO 12 months, so at least they were tested. In my understanding, they only protect against growth, so if the bacteria get into the package, they won’t be killed. Recently, someone recommended this preservative to me for a face toner. I’m curious about the opinion of experts.
I know at least one brand that doesn’t have PAO or an expiration date on their packaging and is sold at big retailers. -
Have you tried pullulan? I see it often in the composition of natural eyebrow gels. Pullulan above 5% + glycerin + any gum, including xanthan gum.
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“Extracts really don’t do anything.” - I think this is an unfair generalization. There are extracts that have a visible, or measurable effect. For example, tea tree oil for acne, warming extracts (ginger, chilli), gel-forming extracts (konjak, tremella, chondrus crispus), film-forming (chia, marshmallow), mattifying (bamboo water - silica). You can also buy standardized extracts even up to 50% of active substances.
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@Newtoformulating The high price may be due to the claims you have chosen to use. No flaking or turning white can be easily scored in a user perception test (if FCA accepts it), but 24hr hold is much more difficult to prove. I would change your claims, e.g. 24hr hold to “hair looks good all day”, it can be confirmed in perception test.
To confirm “all hair types” claim you should test your product on a sufficiently large number of people with each type of hair. Hair types are difficult to defined, some methodologies indicate 12 hair types, if for each of them you need 15-30 people for testing, it can be really expensive. Additionally you would have to get a positive result for all of these types. I don’t think that anyone, institutions or customers would take the tests on a few people seriously. -
@Microformulation, thanks, good to hear that.
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@Abdullah, you need also high HLB surfactant, check this article: https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/4712/pcc-lamellar-gel-network-technology-a-primer/
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This is a very general question. What marketing strategies have you tried so far, which ones have helped and which have not changed anything? You can try cooperation with mid-tier influencers, instagram campaign, cooperation with retailers. Some of them are eager to cooperate with small brands. Some small brand profiles look like a scam if their profiles don’t show real people, real reviews, or you can’t find any information about them outside of their websites.
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Did you check the final pH of the solution after adding the salicylic acid? My guess is that the salicylic acid in the prepared pre-solution is not completely dissolved, and it continues to dissolve after adding surfactants, which causes a significant lowering of the pH value. According to information from salicylic acid supplier I got, if you want to convert salicylic acid to salicylate to make it water-soluble, you need to raise the pH to at least 10. If that doesn’t help, try thickening with Peg-120 methyl glucose dioleate or its equivalent.
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@Abdullah, I have never found a study confirming its effectiveness. Personally, I had some problems with acne discoloration, a dermatologist advised me to use azelaic acid. Contrary to many other products, I saw a difference after using it (after a few weeks), but I didn’t like the tingling sensation after each use. I had a 20% ointment bought at a pharmacy and it was also quite greasy. The Ordinary and Paula’s Choice have products with azelaic acid that are probably more convenient to use, but I have never tried them. I liked the glycolic acid peels the most, you don’t have to struggle with ointments every day, and you should see at least a small difference after one treatment. Both ingredients are recommended for the treatment of melasma. 10% lactic acid may help, but it seems too weak.
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You mean something like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Melasmablemish.jpg
It’s actually not something unusual even at a young age, it could be caused by the sun or hormones (only a doctor can confirm the cause). Hydroquinone would be the most effective, but I don’t know if it is allowed in your country or what your opinion is about this ingredient. You can also try azelaic acid (10-20%), or peeling with glycolic acid (at least 20-30%). The Ordinary has products with these ingredients. -
Actually, I already have a lab I cooperated with, I’m just curious how my local prices compare with US prices in general. If I pay 140 USD for a stability test (16 weeks, 4 & 40 °C, product packaging vs glass benchmark), would you say it’s a good price?
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How much do stability tests cost in US?
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They mentioned in the brochure that the emulsifier passed stability tests at elevated temperature in the presence of electrolytes without affecting the viscosity, but there is no information on what formulation was tested. They use acrylic thickeners in some other available formulations. Can you use Sepimax Zen?
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Try to add a wax with a higher melting point, like rice bran wax or carnauba.
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Happy birthday!
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Crystal matters are often combined with aromatherapy, if you can, I would try Pelargonium Flower Oil and/or Rosa Damascena Flower Oil. Croda has water soluble amethyst extract, INCI “Quartz”. Crystal-driven companies ensure that the entire production process takes place in the presence of crystals. So, buy a crystal, make a new version, and assure your client that you have filled the product with love and acceptance from the crystals.
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Just as curiosity, I looked through the natural products in a popular local online drugstore, and I did not find “free of” anything on any of them (they upload photos of packaging from all sides). On the mentioned Pantene I saw only “0% mineral oils, colorants”. As a curiosity about SLS - claim on face cleanser: “We know you don’t like SLS.” 🙂 On the other hand, I often buy from UK online stores - “free of” on almost every package.
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Exactly, it cannot be stated (in EU) that a product is free of permitted ingredients, because it’s discrimination against other manufacturers, just as it is forbidden to indicate “free of” ingredients that are prohibited. In fact, there are very few “free of” options that are allowed.
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Can’t count the number and size of acne lesions by fluorescence or CNN analysis?
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I haven’t found a document that would fully explain this issue, but on the other hand, I haven’t found any indication in any document that the use of an ingredient that can be used in OTC automatically makes the product an OTC. Moreover, on the FDA website:
A product intended to be applied to the human body for cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, or altering the appearance is a cosmetic. If this product claims to accomplish these deeds through physiological activity or by changing the structure of the skin, it is also a drug. The product categories “drug” and “cosmetic” are not mutually exclusive. This is recognized in sec. 509 of the FD&C Act.
If a cosmetic is also a drug, the label must list first the established name of the drug ingredient(s) and the quantity, kind and proportion of any alcohol, in compliance with sec. 502(e) of the FD&C Act, as “Active Ingredients” and then the remaining ingredients, in compliance with § 701.3(a) or (f), as “Cosmetic Ingredients.”
https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/cosmetics-labeling-regulations/cosmetics-labeling-guide#clgl7
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Q: Propanediol 2%
Salicylic acid 2%
Water 1%
NaOH 0.45%Is this a separate phase where you try to dissolve the salicylic acid? I think @Abdullah may be right in suggesting dissolving the acid in larger amount of water. This is just an idea because I have never tried to dissolve it in such a small amount, but even in the larger amount it was quite difficult, the proportions in the other formulations suggested more water to prepare pre-solution.
What is the pH of this solution? It should be around 10. Do you add a solution with this pH directly to the cream? This can raise the ph above the allowable range for the emulsifier you are using. pH shifting can also destabilize the emulsion. If you lower the ph after adding the solution, do you do it by stirring? Lowering the pH below a certain level may cause salicylic acid to recrystallize. Your emulsifier is somewhat resistant to electrolytes, but the amount may be too high.
Generally, I think the salicylic acid may not be fully dissolved, I would try to make a pre-solution with more water, lower its pH before adding it to the cream. But this formulation seems very difficult, I would try it with an idea from @ngarayeva001@Microformulation, several popular brands have been selling products with 2% salicylic acid in the US for years, and their labeling does not imply that it is OTC, there is no mention of “acne” in any of them. It is not like in Europe that generally 2% is acceptable, but there is a rule that you cannot suggest a medicinal effect of a product? -
In my understanding company sold their products worldwide at popular retailers is not a small company, even if they are not in the world TOP10. In some countries those SPF are still sold.Both big and small companies sell products where users report that the they have had an allergic reaction, products burn their faces, or cause stinging to their eyes. I would expect more than basic tests to avoid the above situations, but on the other hand, maybe those short-term side effects are just not “harmful”.
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I completely understand your frustration. But maybe it’s worth considering what is causing the problem. I don’t think the point is that people are gullible, but on the contrary, they don’t trust companies. One sentence caught my attention: What people believe that big companies will give them poison?There have been cases where big companies haven’t tested their products well. As a big company, I mean companies that sell all over the world to the largest retailers.Examples that come to mind quickly:- no tests of the effectiveness of sunscreens, where after the tests it turned out that the product had lower protection than declared by the manufacturer- releasing the entire batch of the product that burned people’s faces, the reaction from manufacturer was a few months after the first customer reports- companies do not answer customer questions about whether their products can be used during pregnancy - they advise to ask your doctor. Doctors, depending on whom you ask, will advise you against using anything, some will say that you can use anything. One doctor advised against using products with fruit extracts.If a company does not perform basic product testing, why would customers believe that their products are safe to use long term? Is it possible to fully confirm that any substance is safe, if it can depend on many variables, such as interactions with other products, ingredients, and mainly on whether the ingredient is used in one rinse-off product or in five products applied by the customer to damaged skin?
As for the legal regulations, they differ depending on the country - there are different regulations in the USA, different in Japan, Europe, Australia. Which one is correct?Why should the customer rely on regulations if they change over time? The substance is legal for years, then suddenly is not legal anymore.
For clarification, I do not expect answers to the questions mentioned above, it is more an attempt to understand people who are being attacked from all sides with contradictory information.