[grapefruit22]

I would resign from Ascorbic Acid, unless you are ready to make a product without water, e.g. based on propanediol. I bought a mini version of the serum with Ascorbic Acid a few times or got samples - they were always orange right after opening.
Unfortunately, you can only find any comparisons of the stability of these ingredients in marketing brochures. Anyway, Ascorbyl Glucoside is most stable at pH 6.5 and Ethyl Ascorbic Acid at pH 5.5. In the case of Ascorbyl Glucoside, you need to take more care of the pH during the preparation of the solution, since Ascorbyl Glucoside solution has a low pH, and it is stable in neutral.

[grapefruit22]

@MJL
If you only want a sample, they generally have no reason to send it to you if you don’t want to buy at least a MOQ afterwards. And if you don’t have a registered company, it can be assumed that you do not intend to produce and sell (and buy a MOQ). 

I buy ingredients of the biggest manufacturers, quantity between 1 and 25 kg, and I have never had problems with receiving a sample or buying such quantity. I know for surfactants the MOQ is higher (around 180kg), generally the more expensive the ingredient, the smaller the MOQ. In extreme cases, it may even be 0.1 kg.

I found some oil dispersible ceramide complex: https://www.myskinrecipes.com/shop/en/anti-wrinkle/7898-ceramide-complex-oil-dispersible-powder.html

[grapefruit22]

So how to recognize if the laboratory is actually testing the products on the declared number of people? Now I’m checking whether the company is actually recruiting large number of volunteers (e.g. on Facebook). I’m also trying to compare whether the total payment they offer to the testers is not bigger than the price of such a test for the company.
Suppose a laboratory pays volunteer 90 USD for a test, and the price of such a test is 3,300 USD on 30 subjects. Sounds “normal”? How much should such a test cost? It’s a in-use test under the supervision of a dermatologist.

[grapefruit22]

@PhilGeis You mean: take the packages, pour the water, then send that water for testing? Should the microorganisms be completely undetected? What about the dust?

[grapefruit22]

@Paprik @Abdullah @PhilGeis Thank you all for your answers, it’s a great relief to have someone to ask in these situations. For now, I have samples from several manufacturers. The packaging looks clean, I haven’t tested it yet in lab. But they are transparent and I poured water into them and I can see something that looks like dust. They were packed in plastic zipper bags. Maybe it’s silly, but I always thought that such packaging are definitely cleaned just before production. This dust worries me. If the manufacturer store them for a while, then they will have to make printing on them, then they send them to me, after that I will also store them for a while, is it possible to avoid collecting dust? I wish there was no one at all. Is it better to rinse them to be sure in such a situation? How? It will be several thousand packages.

[grapefruit22]

It depends on whether this emulsion is cheaper, faster to make, or more stable. Take a look at this patent, they got emulsion using fermented rice:
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1366736B1/en

[grapefruit22]

Actually nothing, it was irrelevant.
The manufacturers of fermented oils that I found declare that fermentation takes place after the oil is obtained. According to them the main difference after fermentation is the increased content of free fatty acids, and the resulting benefits are reduced oil greasiness and better emulsion stability. This is their marketing claim.

[grapefruit22]

Actually, with pH 6,5 it doesn’t make sense to use AHA, but I had one product with Ascorbyl Glucoside with a pH below 4. It’s quite popular product, in fact after a few months I noticed that it turned dark, but maybe a shorter expiry date would be a solution.

[grapefruit22]

GeorgeBenson said:

Well looking into the symbiome product more it seems that they are claiming that this lactobacillus ferment probiotic is somehow on its own both emulsifying and preserving the product. I’ve never heard of such a thing before…Bioemulsifiers? Pretty interesting stuff if true…

https://www.musingsmag.com/the-lowdown-on-skin-microbiome/

They provide some explanation here:
https://symbiome.com/blogs/journal/what-is-a-biointact-emulsion

In other products they use surfactants and tara gum, so there’s no reason to hide ingredients of this type in a cream.

[grapefruit22]

@cosmeticlearner
You mean suing for an allergic reaction? This question is probably for a lawyer, but for example a fragrance consists of allergens that are not listed in INCI in US. In EU, some of them must be listed, but still not all possible allergens.
https://www.sgs.com/en/news/2022/01/eu-changes-to-cosmetic-allergen-rules

As for the insurance, you should ask about it,  and ask for a clause in the contract where the manufacturer is obliged to have such insurance throughout the duration of your contract.

[grapefruit22]

Syl said:

To do fermentation you need carbohydrates, are carbs present in olive oil? It is possible that a very small amount of olive pulp remains in the olive oil. This is the only explanation I could come up with, maybe someone else will have a better explanation.

Oilve oil contains 5-15% squalene.

[grapefruit22]

@suswang8
I used Plantapon SF in a face cleanser and in my opinion:
- foaming was weak,
- it was drying even when used at low concentration,
- foam disappears in the presence of oil.

Try SCI with Cocamidopropyl Betaine. Actually, it is my favorite combination so far, and it is really gentle. Just try to choose a good quality Cocamidopropyl Betaine, some may make scalp itchy.
You can also double check if 3% PCA glyceryl oleate doesn’t irritate the eyes (I had that problem).

[grapefruit22]

@Dtdang
According to manufacturer to avoid discoloration pH 6,5-6,7 is recommended. Moreover, it is suggested to use potassium hydroxide instead of sodium hydroxide. 

[grapefruit22]

I can’t believe it’s not

NATURAL DEODORANT

  

[grapefruit22]

@Graillotion
By the seller you mean the distributor? No, I meant technical people working directly in the manufacturer’s company. Sometimes when I’m not sure what pH I can use, they often send me additional documents, even with photos, to show any changes that may occur over time, or the results of stability tests at elevated temperature, so that’s why I’m pretty sure that they are really testing the pH range of their ingredients.

[grapefruit22]

@Graillotion
It’s not that bad. Maybe you can try with “formula based on ingredients of natural origin” or “over 90% ingredients of natural origin”. This is your deo? I like the packaging.

[grapefruit22]

@PhilGeis 
Sure, my point is that if oxybenzone is risky only as a raw material, and other raw sunscreen ingredients could also be risky, why is only Oxybenzone mentioned as a problem for reef, and other sunscreen ingredients are “reef-safe”?

@Perry
All SPF ingredients I found had warning “Harmful to aquatic life with long-lasting effects”
For me, a non-nano zinc oxide is better, because at least it’s not absorbed through the skin.

[grapefruit22]

@GeorgeBenson
I trust the manufacturers when it comes to pH range, they test the stability of ingredients and any changes that may occur over time.
As for niacinamide, they provide a pH range, the highest minimum pH I’ve encountered is 5, usually it was pH 4.5, and someone allowed even pH 3. Anyway, they’re all close to the pH value you plan to use.

[grapefruit22]

@Graillotion

I rarely see anyone officially calling their product “natural”. 98-99% (or any other value) of ingredients of natural origin is acceptable, but you have to apply some standard. How much D5 do you have in the product?

[grapefruit22]

I looked through SDS of different sunscreen ingredients - chemical, zinc oxide (nano, non-nano), and in all SDS I checked, I found information: very toxic to aquatic life with long lasting effects. Isn’t that a problem for most (if not all) ingredients of this type? 
So far, I think non-nano coated zinc oxide is the best choice given the gaps in the data on chemical sunscreen actives.

[grapefruit22]

I have no idea, but hydroquinone can oxidized and turn orange/brown, maybe there is similar mechanism related to alpha arbutin.

[grapefruit22]

@MarkBroussard Do you recommend a pH 4,8 only for pH-dependent preservatives, or generally for all products?

[grapefruit22]

GeorgeBenson said:

@Abdullah where do you source your caprylhydroxamic acid? I’d like to try it but can’t find it anywhere, same with chlorphenesin.

If you are looking for low quantity, you can find both ingredients here: https://www.myskinrecipes.com/shop/en/

[grapefruit22]

I have no clue about lipstick formulation, so you can ignore my comment, but isn’t castor oil a little shiny on its own? Matte lipsticks have usually dimethicone as a base. You can try with addition of clay (kaolin, stearalkonium bentonite).

[grapefruit22]

Is your serum brown? Products with alpha arbutin sometimes turn brown.