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jemolian said:

When mixing Sepinov with other polymerics Sepinov seem to not standout in terms of texture since it looks to me that it adopts the firmness from Aristoflex and jiggly look from Sepimax. Skin feel wise, you could still feel the Sepinov, if i didn’t observe wrongly. 

So what are you saying….gives the best feel?  EMT 10….a combination…or Aristoflex AVC?
I had thought I liked the Aristoflex the best.  I am having a tiny issue with the feel created by adding Eumulgin…(see my latest post).

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ngarayeva001 said:

I am with @Pharma on this, I would clearly need antidepressants if I had to use just one emulsifier. 

Well since my beloved GMS+PEG-100 Stearate had been mentioned already, ceteareth-20 isn’t bad if paired with GMS. Weirdly enough I want to mention  TEA stearate because it can emulsify a lot of oil (provided it’s the only emulsifier available). From polymeric, although aristoflex avc is my favorite when it comes to rheology, if I only could keep one then Sepinov EMT 10. And for w/si Dow Corning’s formulation aid 5225. But I respond to this the same way I would respond about food, if I could only keep one type of food I wouldn’t choose my favorite (but junk) but something that is sustainable in a long run.

Slightly off topic…. Do you ever mix Sepinov EMT 10 with either Aristoflex AVC or Zen?  When reading on the mfg site, they suggested blending EMT 10 with other polymerics to create different sensory experiences.  They did not say which was good…and what was meant by ‘different’.  I am discussing this ONLY in the aspect of rheology, and not holding a product together.

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PhilGeis said:

Graillotion said:

I use 9010 + Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol.
I don’t recall 9010 having an odor.  Maybe you got a bad batch?
In any case… PE Alcohol has a lovely rose fragrance…so it might cover the odor you are having with the 9010.

It blends well with about any floral scent, and especially well with rose absolute.    

Why phenyl ethyl alcohol?  It targets that same bugsas phenoxyethyl  only less effetively and you still have a fungal gap. 

Was going after mold, which I was told 9010 had a gap on.  I was not able to use the typical mold inhibitors due to needing to keep the pH around 6.

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ngarayeva001 said:

Oh wait I forgot about Goop! They have anti vampire spray with: black tourmaline, lapis lazuli, ruby, labradorite, bloodstone, aqua aura, black onyx, garnet, pyrite and nuummite; reiki, sound waves, moonlight, love, reiki charged crystals. Everyone knows you need garlic to scare vampires away. I don’t know what they were thinking!

Why is it that something so healthy as garlic….rarely makes the INCI on skincare? 

Thank you all for your comments.  I am loving it.  This verbiage ought to be rich! 

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I use 9010 + Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol.
I don’t recall 9010 having an odor.  Maybe you got a bad batch?
In any case… PE Alcohol has a lovely rose fragrance…so it might cover the odor you are having with the 9010.

It blends well with about any floral scent, and especially well with rose absolute.    

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emma1985 said:

The meteorite powder is $185 for 10 g. I feel like you have to be an absolute idiot to buy that. It’s also insoluble.

I am sure some “Out of this World’ cream can be created with that….maybe something that exfoliates?    

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suswang8 said:

Separate “citric acid” question:  Is it ever acceptable to add minute amounts (e.g., 0.05%) of citric acid during the water phase if one knows in advance that the pH will be too high?  (It seems like standard practice is to always test the pH and add citric acid during cool down.). Thank you.

I do all the time….for some reason I get a little foam on my water phase….and the second I add the citric….foam is gone….love it.

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jemolian said:

Probably because not many people looked into it i guess? But even with the sodium phytate, normally i don’t expect people to use more than 0.2% ? It would still have some moisturization or sebum regulating benefits at lower amounts. 

I’m interested to use it unfortunately it don’t go well with polymerics, which is why i’m using in inositol instead for similar benefits, less the chelating effect. 

Why do you say it does not go well with polymerics?
I am using it with them?  What is the issue?  You mean just the whole electrolyte thing?  I think at .2%…it is not an issue.

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jemolian said:

In terms of marketing benefits of sodium phytate, see here 
https://www.ulprospector.com/documents/1197592.pdf?bs=10735&b=332188&st=20&r=na&ind=personalcare

Other similar ingredients that have perhaps the similar benefits would be the materials made from rice bran, which can include inositol or perhaps phytic acid. 

Ok…I’ve never seen anything like that before…. So if I read this right, using this chelator, it also has incredible skin benefits like I might expect from orchid embryos and ground unicorn horn?  Why have I not heard of all these amazing skin benefits before?  Hehehe….why doesn’t every product include this? 

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Since I work with both M 202 and M 68….I can tell you…M 68 soaps more than 202.
I use about 8% of super slip ingredients to minimize soaping.   IL being the main one.

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You never know whom will ultimately use your products, or even if they might become re-gifted.  Therefore it might be prudent to list known allergens….Say you were using nut oils….etc.

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suswang8 said:

I am trying to buy as few ingredients as possible so I don’t end up with an entire kitchen full of garbage that I do not use, but one thing that I felt I had to get in order to be an all-natural baby was sodium phytate….which of course ropes you in to getting citric acid.  I’m not happy that I will have ounces and ounces of the stuff left over as I use it in such minute amounts, but whatever.  

What pH are you going for? I think my requirements are only that the formulation be below 6, and in my most recent test case, I did not have to add any citric acid when using sodium phytate at 0.2%.  I believe the unscientific paper strips give me a reading a 5.5 to 6.

Because of the B3 in the formula…I am shooting for the 5.5 to 6 range.  I end up at almost 8 as my starting point.

I use a meter.  Not sure how much I would rely on strips. 

One way to look at things that are used at such low use rates, if I am promoting being 97.2% natural based ingredients….how is changing that to 97.0% really going to alter the sales or perception of the product?  Not like EDTA is toxic.

I work under the auspices that 100% is very difficult to obtain, so I take it where I can, and leave it where I can’t.

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Nope!

Many old threads on this issue…search them.

Many modern formulas are now cold process….go figure!

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What is your application?

I have been working for more than a year on a mosquito lotion….and am finally getting a product that lasts a number of hours.

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Dtdang said:

@Graillotion, United States , usa

Then the sky is the limit…. Some of my favorite suppliers (re-packers) are:

Formulators sample shop
Making Cosmetics (more expensive)
Lotion Crafters
Make your own . buzz (best quality butters!)
Ingredients to die for (expensive and slow to ship)
Noble Roots.

Less fav:

Brambleberry
The Sage
bulkapothecary.com

These are all re-packers…..assuming you wanted small amounts.

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Always helps…if you say what country you live in!

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suswang8 said:

Graillotion said:

suswang8 said:

Thank you.  I actually just bought the same beaker for the same reason.

In terms of aeration, do you find you need to stir air out of your batches after you’ve used the homogenizing tip?  Or not necessary?

I’m trying to decide between this, the Ocis 2.0, or maybe a used Turrax from eBay.  Hmmmm.

Actually funny you bring that up….when I send samples of the cream to my test group (all of whom have some skill set in cosmetics), one of the first things they ask me…..is how do you get a product with no air in it???  I don’t know the answer….that is just how it comes out.  
Let me first say….the equipment seen in your video…is EXACTLY what I use (Dynamic version….same company).  I use Montanov 202 as a primary emulsifier, and also include a polymeric and some carbomer.  So my emulsions thicken instantly when the phases are combined.

So no…I do not NEED to stir air out….but I do stir (with a spatula) at least 10 times t/o cool down.  The tall narrow beaker….allows me the keep the head submerged…so I suspect very little air is introduced.

Hi, Graillotion.
I got the Dynamic and did a first test using this blade:

Although I had the head submerged, it seems like it still incorporates a bit of air.  My results were very similar to what that lady above on YouTube got — except she was using the Blender Tool homogenizer — with a thick, marshmallow/meringue-type texture.  I want to get the Blender Tool, largely because I could use it with smaller samples, but not if it too adds in air.  

I might also try this blade:

Did you find the Blender Tool incorporates less air than either of these two blades?  Also, are you using your device slanted (at an angle)?

Thank you.

I use the dairy blade….when making lotion…and the blender tool…when making cream.  Yes, I seem to get less air with the blender tool.  I tend to run the homogenizer tool at an angle…because when straight up and down it seems to form a suction on the bottom of the beaker….the angle breaks the suction and the product seems to mix better.

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Also, on what speed setting are you able to comfortable use it?  I can see from this video, the person can’t safely take it past 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHBO2O2b5rs&t=757s

Thanks again.

Loved the video….supports what I had suspected.

Ok….I think this lady…has never really worked with her machine.    Yes…if you start it at 4…the contents will jump out of the beaker!  However…if you start it at 2…and ease it up….you can take it to 6….no sweat.  I am LMAO….that she tried to start it at high speed.
So I always run it at 6!!!!  But NEVER start it at 6….the beaker would be empty!  :p 

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Thank you.  I actually just bought the same beaker for the same reason.

In terms of aeration, do you find you need to stir air out of your batches after you’ve used the homogenizing tip?  Or not necessary?

I’m trying to decide between this, the Ocis 2.0, or maybe a used Turrax from eBay.  Hmmmm.

Actually funny you bring that up….when I send samples of the cream to my test group (all of whom have some skill set in cosmetics), one of the first things they ask me…..is how do you get a product with no air in it???  I don’t know the answer….that is just how it comes out.  
Let me first say….the equipment seen in your video…is EXACTLY what I use (Dynamic version….same company).  I use Montanov 202 as a primary emulsifier, and also include a polymeric and some carbomer.  So my emulsions thicken instantly when the phases are combined.

So no…I do not NEED to stir air out….but I do stir (with a spatula) at least 10 times t/o cool down.  The tall narrow beaker….allows me the keep the head submerged…so I suspect very little air is introduced.

[Graillotion]

when I formulate….I make 150 gm batches.

But I use a special beaker…that keeps the entire head submerged…see attached. (I use the tall skinny 250ml version)

https://www.amazon.com/Beaker-Borosilicate-Single-Karter-Scientific/dp/B006VYY09Q/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=250ml+narrow+beaker&sr=8-7

Sorry…I meant, I use the high dollar homogenizing tip….the one that cost more than the machine.  :pensive:

And FYI:  Most stick blender heads will not fit down into that beaker…as it is narrow….part of why I use the roto stator emulsifying head. 

[Graillotion]

Well….this is a tough question to answer.  To answer it correctly, I would have had to make two identical formulas, and use one attachment on each.
When I make 165 based emulsions…I just use the blender attachment.  When I am making a lamellar emulsion, I have always used the emulsifier, since I am using it for a short amount of time, then switching to stirring.
Those that have tried my lamellar emulsions have raved about them.  But as mentioned at the beginning, I do not know, had I used the other attachment, maybe they would have been just as good?
So I have exclusively used the emulsifier for my new lamellar projects.

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Following….

Just curious….why when Evonik is offering formulas with these two emulsifiers…I believe every one of them has a pinch of Hydrogenated Castor Oil?

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How are you emulsifying?  You mention stirring.  Please describe your process.

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Switch to Kpangnan.  

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Pharma said:

Emulgreen L15’s INCI is C15-19 alkanes meaning that some molecules in there does evaporate but rather slowly whilst others nearly don’t.

Pentadecane (C15) is liquid at RT and has a high vapour pressure which, like essential oils, lets them evaporate well below its boiling temperature.

The other end of the mixtures spectrum is nonadecane (C19) which is solid at RT and has a very low vapour pressure, it does not really evaporate but feels dry (because it’s solid).

If you’re looking for faster drying and full evaporation, go with undecane, dodecane, and/or tridecane (C11-13) which evaporate fast and dry quickly or isododecane which has about the same vapour pressure as ethanol and takes longer to fully dissipate. Notably, C4 and C5 have lower vapour pressure but still evaporate.

What all these molecules have in common and what seems contradictory to volatility is a high boiling point well above 200°C (if memory serves me right). The reason which greatly contributes to their good volatility is small molecular weights and low intermolecular interactions. Meaning, the lower the number in their INCI name, the faster they evaporate.

I have been fascinated with the ‘canes’….but have been unable to work with them.  Due to living on a rock in the middle of the Pacific, everything must be air freighted in….and so anything with a low flash point, I can not acquire (without moving mountains). 

Does anything have these properties, with a higher flash point (I know….counter intuitive), that I could work with it?

Is there a combo like Cetiol Ultimate, that some sort of synergy magical raises the flashpoint?  :p