[Graillotion]

Guessing that works as the same concept of Vanilla browners…in which case you can use

Sodium Metabisulfite

or

Sodium Thiosulfate Pentahydrate

But these should not be used without extreme care and caution.  Not for amateurs.

[Graillotion]

And yes…my cream has 3.

Mont 202
GSC
Arisoflex + Carbomer

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Yes…even the best (165) should have a co….

GSC / Emuligin

If your pH is low enough you can use 

Varisoft EQ 65

Some polymerics can be used as long as you keep electrolytes low.

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Yes, there could be a small subset of consumers that have the perception that PEG is bad. You will always find a group of misguided consumers that will balk at every possible ingredient you might include.  I would balk at the fact you had extracts in your product, which I would consider ‘bug food’.  So you can not please everyone, and in the end you need to make the most stable product you can….which would be 165 based.

Yes you can pair it with Emuligin, if you can bear the sensories.

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s.  One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market.  It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.

I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant

Lotionpro 165 | Lotioncrafter

TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)

INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate

You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams.

Hello, one site said to add cetearyl alcohol to thicken. Could i pair 165 with emulgin to make it more stable with a formula that has alot of extracts? Thank you

165 is hands down the best emulsifier….if you use extracts.

All of the alcohols have different feels…so buy small samples of several…and experiment.  

Cetyl is one of the most common.

If you want to make world class textured creams….just read all the comments on this site written by ngarayeva001

[Graillotion]

165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s.  One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market.  It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.

I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant

Lotionpro 165 | Lotioncrafter

TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)

INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate

You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams.

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Many higher-end, top-quality facial skin products use multiple types of hyaluronic acid.  I do believe that at least one published study found that very low molecular weight hyaluronic acid is pro inflammatory, so for the moment, I am steering clear.  I do wonder how these components differ in their function from humectants, such as glycerin, which also purportedly draw water to the skin.

Due to the liberties granted to us on the INCI (Below 1% liberties)…. Unless you work for those companies,…you have NO IDEA how little HA they are using.  I think they are using tiny amounts as a ‘claim’ ingredient.  IMO, there are better humectants.  Mark has a VERY valid point…about HA already being fully hydrated before it even touches your skin.  In full disclosure…I use HA in all but one product, and I view it as ‘label appeal’.

[Graillotion]

Well….a tough question to answer…because choice of emulsifier totally changes the dynamics of the cream…. Mont 202 will make something lite like angel feathers (something you’ll never get to feel with Emuligin in there)…Mont 68…something very rich feeling.  Both of which will need an anionic to keep them stable (Emuligin or GSC).  The anionic you chose…will make the cream heavy and dense.  GSC will keep it much lighter.

The last two on your list…both contain Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, a minor surfactant…. which I have found adds to soaping vs helping to eliminate it.  Considering you started with the worst soaper in the biz… anything you will use…will seem like an improvement. The last two are essentially the same…Just one has a fancier INCI.

Why is the 165 series emulsifier not on your list?

Polymulse..again a completely different animal…and unless you are looking more towards a gel cream….I would consider this a ‘co’ product, and much less a primary.

If you are a beginner….the Montanov series can provide a lot of challenges.

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suswang8 said:

Did you experiment with the more expensive types? Are you saying that you do not like gums at all, or that you just do not like xanthan?

1) Don’t care for the texture they bring….
2) I am a anti-soaping fanatic.

….And hey….why not just just a polymeric….when it actually enhances the texture when used correctly?

I would say…I don’t use Xgum any more, just like I don’t formulate with e-wax…. So many better options.

[Graillotion]

Don’t like any X-Gum….formulate around it.    

[Graillotion]

Not sure I understand your question.

Did you mean antioxidant? 

A good water soluble chelator is Sodium Phytate.

I think any chelator would be a good substitute, since I am not aware that Vit. E works as a chelator.

[Graillotion]

I think citric acid….is the go to product for lowering pH in emulsions.

Can’t speak for hand sanitizer….as I don’t work with it.

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@Cafe33

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Cafe33 said:

You know there is more to it than simply adding a fixative. 

My personal favorite, dissolve the oil in Aerosil 200 (Silicon Dioxide). It is an unbelievable fixative. I made anhydrous products which have been sitting in open air and the smell is still strong after 3 months or so. Similar products not using Silicon Dioxide lost scent after about a week.

My only hesitation is where to add the Aerosil/Fragrance composition, oil phase or water phase. I have not concluded which is better. And when I try to read more lately my head hurts. lol

I think I will give the Aerosil 200 a look…. @Cafe33 do you have a use rate….and technique? Should I just make a slurry with only the EO’s….? Or just toss the A200 into the general emulsion?

Have you experienced any abrasiveness with Aerosil 200? I see there are finer version….but A 200 is cheaper.

[Graillotion]

Add dimethicone (to reduce soaping / whitening)

Choice of emulsifier makes a big difference.

Is that your entire ingredient list?  It only adds up to 7.5%.

It is difficult for the group to help you…when they don’t know what is in there.

[Graillotion]

Well, I broke down and used the GSC last night, and can confirm that GSC makes a lighter pickup than Eumulgin, even though I used it at a higher rate.

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luiscuevasii said:

“LOVE” is the often found on the ingredient list, and It seams that It work well with anionic and catiónic products.

Well….that would be fun to go after….But somehow saying ‘made without LOVE’ just doesn’t come out right.  :p 

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jemolian said:

I think depends on the requirements, if there’s no or minimal electrolytes, body vs non-bodying, perhaps: 

• 165 type (Glyceryl Stearate and PEG-100 Stearate) for non bodying
• Emulium Delta MB (Cetyl Alcohol (and) Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-75 Stearate (and) Ceteth-20 (and) Steareth-20) for bodying, rich velvet
• Sepinov EMT 10 for polymeric, silky

Are you aware of any US based re-packers that are selling Emulium Delta MB?

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jemolian said:

When mixing Sepinov with other polymerics Sepinov seem to not standout in terms of texture since it looks to me that it adopts the firmness from Aristoflex and jiggly look from Sepimax. Skin feel wise, you could still feel the Sepinov, if i didn’t observe wrongly. 

So what are you saying….gives the best feel?  EMT 10….a combination…or Aristoflex AVC?
I had thought I liked the Aristoflex the best.  I am having a tiny issue with the feel created by adding Eumulgin…(see my latest post).

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ngarayeva001 said:

I am with @Pharma on this, I would clearly need antidepressants if I had to use just one emulsifier. 

Well since my beloved GMS+PEG-100 Stearate had been mentioned already, ceteareth-20 isn’t bad if paired with GMS. Weirdly enough I want to mention  TEA stearate because it can emulsify a lot of oil (provided it’s the only emulsifier available). From polymeric, although aristoflex avc is my favorite when it comes to rheology, if I only could keep one then Sepinov EMT 10. And for w/si Dow Corning’s formulation aid 5225. But I respond to this the same way I would respond about food, if I could only keep one type of food I wouldn’t choose my favorite (but junk) but something that is sustainable in a long run.

Slightly off topic…. Do you ever mix Sepinov EMT 10 with either Aristoflex AVC or Zen?  When reading on the mfg site, they suggested blending EMT 10 with other polymerics to create different sensory experiences.  They did not say which was good…and what was meant by ‘different’.  I am discussing this ONLY in the aspect of rheology, and not holding a product together.

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PhilGeis said:

Graillotion said:

I use 9010 + Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol.
I don’t recall 9010 having an odor.  Maybe you got a bad batch?
In any case… PE Alcohol has a lovely rose fragrance…so it might cover the odor you are having with the 9010.

It blends well with about any floral scent, and especially well with rose absolute.    

Why phenyl ethyl alcohol?  It targets that same bugsas phenoxyethyl  only less effetively and you still have a fungal gap. 

Was going after mold, which I was told 9010 had a gap on.  I was not able to use the typical mold inhibitors due to needing to keep the pH around 6.

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ngarayeva001 said:

Oh wait I forgot about Goop! They have anti vampire spray with: black tourmaline, lapis lazuli, ruby, labradorite, bloodstone, aqua aura, black onyx, garnet, pyrite and nuummite; reiki, sound waves, moonlight, love, reiki charged crystals. Everyone knows you need garlic to scare vampires away. I don’t know what they were thinking!

Why is it that something so healthy as garlic….rarely makes the INCI on skincare? 

Thank you all for your comments.  I am loving it.  This verbiage ought to be rich! 

[Graillotion]

I use 9010 + Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol.
I don’t recall 9010 having an odor.  Maybe you got a bad batch?
In any case… PE Alcohol has a lovely rose fragrance…so it might cover the odor you are having with the 9010.

It blends well with about any floral scent, and especially well with rose absolute.    

[Graillotion]

emma1985 said:

The meteorite powder is $185 for 10 g. I feel like you have to be an absolute idiot to buy that. It’s also insoluble.

I am sure some “Out of this World’ cream can be created with that….maybe something that exfoliates?    

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suswang8 said:

Separate “citric acid” question:  Is it ever acceptable to add minute amounts (e.g., 0.05%) of citric acid during the water phase if one knows in advance that the pH will be too high?  (It seems like standard practice is to always test the pH and add citric acid during cool down.). Thank you.

I do all the time….for some reason I get a little foam on my water phase….and the second I add the citric….foam is gone….love it.