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suswang8 said:

Thoughts on water that has been boiled and put through a Zero Water filter?

One of the reason’s we don’t boil tap water….is it still carries the full mineral load….even after boiling. Why not this….if you’re gonna go to the lengths of boiling it…why not just finish the process….and distill it?

If that was your only option…I would do it in the reverse order….as I am sure your filter is veritable petri dish of lovelies, negating the boiling.

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I never read the label on my distilled water before tonight.  Is says:
Processed by: Steam distillation, microfiltration, ozonation.

So is that the trifecta….as good as I could hope for from a big box store purchase, @PhilGeis ?

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Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

I’m gonna guess… High acyl….after viewing this chart:

Where did you get this chart?????

I got it here:

Best Selling High Acyl Gellan Gum - E418 Gellan Gum Supplier (gumstabilizer.com)

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I’m gonna guess… High acyl….after viewing this chart:

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Ilsme said:

Hi Graillotion, I would say, there are no gums that help texturize same as polymerics, especially if you’d like to have a light cream in a jar. There’s no problem with rich creams.
I also have never tested nice “all natural” bodylotion without polymerics and silicons because the soaping is too bad I just can’t stand it. Unfortunately Germany goes the natural road at the moment: Natrue or Cosmos certified it’s a nightmare.

We’ve tested many natural gums and gellating agents, one combination wich gives a good viscosity and quite nice texture is xanthan gum & gellan gum (80:20). At the moment this is my favorite and works well, I’ve managed to formulate some moisturizers I really enjoy.
There is definitely a synergy between xanthan gum and carrob gum i just haven’t found the right persentage that I would be pleased about. Carrob gum changes the texture with a very small percentage, be carefull there if you try it out.

I wasn’t a fan of Solagum AX, I must say. 
Everything I tested with pullulan in it has a pilling effect but it’s a known for an imediate tightening because of the film forming..

P.S. I must say, I’m fan of yours

Thank you for your feedback.  To be quite honest…I have not heard of gellan gum.  I do read that there are two versions….low acyl and high acyl.  Which version are you using in cosmetics?

So something like Siligel, which has a very small amount of pullulan…were you still finding pilling?  Did you ever test Siligel?

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Once you do your knockouts….please post back…who was the culprit.

Aloha.

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Perry said:

I’m not sure if you are creating products for yourself or for customers, but the better people to answer a subjective question like this is your customers.  This really comes down to a preference.

If you objectively look at the question then the answer for most people could be found in looking at what products most people use.  For an online customer brands like CeraVe, Aveeno, and Jergens seems to be the best.  

But isn’t what most people use….directly correlated to marketing budgets, and locations available for purchase?

And someone on this forum…    …. often says the consumer can not feel the minor nuances in formulation, which I would agree with.  So what I am was asking…in a nutshell….was on a pure textural platform….who has done a good job with using gums…vs polymerics (amongst those with the big marketing budgets).

As I looked through some big name formulas…I get the impression… a good supporting cast…can create a ‘good enough’ product to compete with the polymerics???

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Perry said:

Thank you all!  Can’t wait to have the Cosmetic Formulation Q&A with @Pharma  (coming later this month)

I was wondering when that was gonna happen!  Can’t wait.

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Pattsi said:

I’m not sure I understand your question well.
I will name a few that I ( kind of ) like, not really blown away or anything.

Clarins hand and nail
Burt’s Bees baobab oil ultimate care hand cream
Eucerin Advanced repair hand - red cap tube
La Roche-Posay Cicaplast baume B5

If i have to pick one, I would say La Roche-Posay. 

Personally I don’t like high gum or gums in emulsion other than pullulan ( is pullulan a gum? I don’t know ). 
Have you tried wax, rice bran wax is quite nice.

Thank for the list…I will look through them.

So am I understanding you correctly…. The only products that have impressed you (texturally)…. always included polymeric emulsifiers?

I do not intend on using gums at a high rate.  I get all I am asking for with .2-.25%.

When you mention pullulan…is that by itself…or in conjunction with gums?  The marketing blurbs mention a ‘synergy’ with the gums.

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Abdullah said:

In my experience small amounts of thickeners in different  phases and different types make a lot of improvement in viscosity and feel than adding too much thickener in one phase or one type.

If you add even 1% wax to your emulsion it increase viscosity dramatically but i don’t like how they feel. Maybe because i have only used beeswax. 

Agree completely…not only on thickeners…..but I also follow this principle in emollients, humectants and barrier function as well.  So I create each structural segment of a good moisturizer with multiple pieces.  So wax (I use Candelilla) never above .5%, and gums never above .25%

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Pharma said:

It was a pleasure to read through this thread 🙂 !

Regarding Acacia gum aka gum Arabic: We used to use that and Tragacanth in different pharmaceutical preparations. I never really liked their feel… however, I’ve never tried either of the two at lower % in cosmetic preparations. I think I still have some native ones somewhere in my collection. I guess I now have to reincarnate at least the Acacia gum (if I can find it). One of its main constituents are arabinogalactan proteins which show a unique emulsion stabilising effect related to Pickering emulsions or hydrophobically modified polyacrylates.

I just watched a video (re-packer video at mommy blogger level) showing the different gums in water at 1%.  The Acacia that they used….essentially added NO viscosity.  Have you found this to be the case?  So if that is the case….then Acacia’s place is simply as an emulsion stabilizer…and not so much about texture and viscosity?  And they did mention (without explanation) that it did help to stabilize or solubilize the oil phase as I recall.

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There is some value in comments about theory, but the comments from those who have actually taken the time, and made the effort to test through these tedious combinations it is without equal. For the 1% of people that can feel, and care about the tiny details and nuances, these efforts cannot be found elsewhere.
The One percenters in life, are the people that make life better for the 99%.  If mediocrity rules the day, we can all get our cosmetics at WalMart.  I am simply not happy with that option.  I do NOT believe that all the synergies have been discovered, and that better things are yet to be created.  I think creativity comes from smaller brands where we are not hamstrung with existing formulas, and sku’s that are on the shelf.  Creativity comes from the sharing of ideas that can be implemented onto a clean sheet of paper….No industry bias allowed.
Sounds like you had a bad day, so hope tomorrow is better for you.

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ggpetrov said:

I am curious how exactly did you find that the unpleasant feeling is caused by the the Xanthan gum? The Xanthan gum is used in practically almost every cosmetic emulsion, but they all are so different by their haptical properies. So if you feel all of that unpleasant effects, maybe the reason is somewhere else.
Also, we are talking about Glyceryl stearate peg-100 stearate and Glyceryl stearate citrate which are far away from the imagine of an emulsifiers, which give haptically pleasant emulsions.
This forum constantly disappoints me, especially with that kind of inadequate threads.

Pharma said:

It was a pleasure to read through this thread 🙂 !

That was an interesting tone .  As Perry would say, 99% of the public won’t be able to feel the difference of small nuances that some of us work with.  And I agree…. but the 1% are people also…and should be respected as such.

Are you saying if you made a formula with .2% X-gum, and .5% X-gum, you would be unable to tell a difference?  I guarantee you…the professional formulas you refer to…had some recent chemistry grad….making graduated versions with many types of gums, at many different inclusion rates, until they found the ‘Ah hah moment’,

If this forum disappoints….may I ask which forums you relish?  I would like to visit them as well.  To date, I have found none better than this one.

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helenhelen said:

I didn’t like the “Soft” version of xanthan gum.

1) I definitely preferred xanthan and sclerotium gum together. Xanthan is as you know stringy and contributes to soaping. Adding sclerotium (I used Amigum) helped on both aspects…

2) … But sclerotium on its own wasn’t great, as it forms too much of a springy blancmange texture and has a firmer, heavier/richer feel with more residue.. it needs xanthan gum to soften those aspects. Xanthan is also meant to provide better stability.

https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/438-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-I.html

https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/443-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-II-Gum-blending.html

6) I found 50:50 a good ratio. More xanthan is stringy and soapy, and more sclerotium is heavier and springy.

Great read…and thank you for all that great feedback.  I always enjoy reading your responses. 

First question…if you don’t like X-gum Soft…what version did you like…just straight up X-gum….or clear?

Thank you for the Skinchakra links…very good reads….HOWEVER… now I will have to try Solagum AX! 

That and I will of course have to ask the question…If Acacia and sclerotium both enhance the feel of X-gum…. What would happen if you combined Acacia and sclerotium?     

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@Pharma

I am following.

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Agree with @Syl, as long as the subject remains X-Gum.

Can change with other gelling agents.

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You could sure take a look at adding triethyl citrate.

If I were making one….it would be in there.  (I don’t make one….but I’ve thought about it more than once.)

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Yeah….they are using this:

SK-INFLUX® V / INCI (PCPC name) Ceramide NP; Ceramide AP; Ceramide EOP; Phytosphingosine; Cholesterol; Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate; Carbomer; Xanthan Gum

Just moved the nice sounding things to the front of the line.

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Abdullah said:

Polyglyceryl 4 Laurate is cold processable and creates water thin emulsion

I will still use a base of 165….just looking for the ideal co-emulsifier.  The rest of the formula requires the strength of 165 to hold it together.  

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vitalys said:

@Graillotion … they perform this function only when combined with other components of the lipid bilayers - fatty acids and cholesterol in equimolar ratio. ….” if the ceramide is
provided without the addition of the other 2 key physiologic lipids at an appropriate ratio, i.e., with cholesterol
and ≥1 fatty acids, barrier function deteriorates rather
than improves”.

….. Polyglycerol emulsifiers w/o are the best when formulating with ceramides in terms of efficiency. 

Thank you for your response, and @Pattsi as well.  So I intend on using /SK-INFLUX® V / INCI (PCPC name)
Ceramide NP; Ceramide AP; Ceramide EOP;
Phytosphingosine; Cholesterol; Sodium Lauroyl
Lactylate; Carbomer; Xanthan Gum …
As the source of my ceramides.  Does this preblended package meet the above listed requirements….meaning take cholesterol….is that included at the proper ration to achieve peak performance of this ceramide package?

Regarding polyglyceryl emulsifiers…. does this require a micro emulsion for enhanced efficacy, or is it as simple as enhancing the overall package with a polyglyceryl?  Here is a list of ones that are readily available to me.  Any recommendations?

polyglyceryl-3 stearate
polyglyceryl-4 laurate
Polyglyceryl-4 oleate

or

Is there a gold standard…I should be chasing in that category.  Those were just the easy access…form a quick shipping supplier.

Thank You

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Perry said:

My thoughts…

If we assume that these esters do enhance penetration, so what?

What will you be able to measure to demonstrate that enhancing penetration lead to some additional benefit?

For that matter, what do you measure to demonstrate that ceramides themselves actually provide a substantial benefit beyond what a moisturizer can do?

I feel like people are being mislead and buying into marketing hype of ingredients without stepping back and asking the basic question, does it really do anything noticeable?

That’s perfectly fine for consumers who want to buy products that provide hope in a bottle. But from a scientific standpoint these are the kinds of things I would want to know.

Because if the answer is “we don’t see any noticeable difference” you’re spending a lot of time trying to optimize something that doesn’t need to be optimized.

This is why raw material suppliers love me lol

I appreciate your thoughts and perspective.  If my goals were to maximize profits and simplify formulas, you are an invaluable asset.

However…. that is not my focus.  I have made enough money for this lifetime.  If there is a company I model…it would be a hybrid of Newman’s Own.  I am at the place in my life…where I am giving back…. making the lives of people with certain conditions a better place.  I think you are aware that I work in conjunction with one of the chemist on this site, who has a similar outlook on life.

So if someone that knows me well were to describe me….the word ‘anal’ would certainly be part of the dialogue.  So do I think 99% of the people would notice the effect of ceramides in to context of an elegant formula?….Heck no.  But that is not what I am after.  I am chasing that last (and undetectable) 2%, that might give benefit.  Not because they will feel it…because they won’t, but because it might make how they feel (over time) in their own skin, and their world….a better place.  The chemist and I work very hard to bring all aspects of the formula together to a single point, and maximizing every aspect down to the last detail.  This absolutely includes the placebo effect, which is powerful powerful medicine.  The funny thing is….you can do all these things…and still offer the end result at a fair price….once you knock out the 100, 200, 300% profit margins.  Not saying I work for free… but my payment is based more on changing people’s lives for the better.

So in a nutshell….I do chase all those little nuances that are completely undetectable, but that I believe might have even the slightest chance of making someone’s life….a better place.  And yes….the right combination of anal formulator and genius chemist…magic can happen.

Thank you very much for providing the platform and forum.  I am forever in your debt.

Aloha.

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I saw another study that claimed lecithin also enhanced the penetration of ceramides.  Can I just kill all the birds with one stone…and use Heliofeel?

INCI

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate (and) Polyglyceryl-3 Stearate (and) Hydrogenated Lecithin

BTW: I used Heliofeel the first time, and it did not hold the formula together, so went back to a 165 based system and it did fine.  However I could use Heliofeel as a co emulsifier for the 165 system.

Due to the end goal of this formula…I also use glyceryl oleate as well.

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Hehehe….that is almost mean…not telling us where one can buy them.  

I am a fragrance fanatic….so I will toss out my go to fragrance… This simply means…the most people like it…and the fewest possible people…dislike it.

Ginger and Lime….from Nurture Soap

another all around popular one…especially among Korean’s has surprisingly been:

Balsam and Cedar…from Nature’s Fragrance.

One of my personal favorites …. but this will be a product…where maybe 30% of people will love it…mostly men:

Tobacco and Vanilla… from Bulk Apothecary…(a company I despise doing business with.)

@RedCoast 

Oh…and on the topic of vanilla fragrance…. Vanilla Lace…from New Directions Aromatics….is hypnotic! 

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em88 said:

Foldable label?

Anyone know a online US printer that makes these?  Would be nice if it came pre-folded with the adhesive.  Might fit on the bottom of the jar.  Is there no allowance for a sperate but included INCI?

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Abdullah said:

There are patents that show they have niacinamide at pH 4 and below. You can check them.

Thank you.  I currently use it at 4.8 pH w/o issue.  But that only tells me it is not disturbing the emulsion.  I was curious if was having a negative effect on availabiulity….at that 4.8 mark.  I know things start to happen at much lower pH, but that is not really a concern for my use.
I think at the use rate I am using (2%), even a loss of 10% would be more than acceptable.