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chemicalmatt said:

As many CC readers know, my affinity for C12-15 alkyl benzoate has few bounds (Me: “What CAN’T Finsolv TN do, I ask?”). However, this is one where I depart. Having just worked with Myristyl (C14) Lactate for the first time in a skin-care project, I can’t say enough about the unique sensorial attributes. Slippery but not oily; sorta’ “squeaky” but not “filmy” if that makes sense?  Why did it take me so many years to discover this gem? Menthyl lactate is the only other lactyl ester I’ve used before, only as a cooling agent. This ester is a really nice find.

Thank you.  Sounds like your passion for C12-15 AB is only out shown by my passion for TEC!    (BTW…that body butter as 3% TEC as part of the emollient package.)

I have not worked with C14….but will be on the hunt for it.  I do use Myristyl Myristate (I know…not the same thing) in everything.  Another of my favorite ingredients.

While I have you on the line….. The other day Jane mentioned Caprylyl Methicone in an unrelated comment.  Do you have an opinion of that ingredient, @chemicalmatt ? 

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MarkBroussard said:

@PhilGeis:

As I understand it, you are required to disclose all of the component ingredients of the INCI of an ingredient.  If not, then how does one who did not develop the multi-component ingredient have the expertise to determine what is or is not an incidential ingredient in multi-component ingredient if the manufacturer listed that ingredient in the INCI?  Let me do some research.  

Under what loopholes do you think Luecidal products are working under?  Guarantee they would not say…. Pure deception!

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Abdullah said:

I don’t know about these ingredients but is this video on youtube? 
Cab you share the link?

Discord Webinar Replay: Analyzing Lotions & Creams - YouTube

Note:  On a chart like that….those are arbitrary opinions.  

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Never kiss and tell.   

Check your messages in a few min.

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GeorgeBenson said:

 I never considered that perhaps in some situations they are trying to deflect attention away from their “secret weapon” in the formula.

The (more or less natural) brand I am referring to…would be considered a ‘benchmark’ brand/product for the copycat, so every mommy blogger is gonna look at that INCI for the first 3 benchmarks they will be looking at.  Without basic chemistry knowledge, they will be completely deflected from the prize….and will fall for the more interesting story line they presented for the insignificant microbial/s.  As the ‘prize’ would be a rather costly ‘structuring agent’, then one could assume that a more economical structuring agent would be selected by the potential copycat.  Effectively averting the copycat (on the mommy blogger level).  

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As an example, I make pretty unique deo.  It is a multi-faceted attack on bacteria that produce odor.  I will often discuss the common aspects it shares with other professional formulas, the triethyl citrate, the EHG, and so on. 

I never discuss in open forum…what I consider to be the ‘secret weapon’ in the formula.  Granted every self-respecting chemist is familiar with it….but often don’t put two and two together…and say…WOW…that would make the perfect deo ingredient.  (Obviously all secrets are exposed on the INCI… but I have seen brands really try and hide things when they explain their ingredients…. things like calling their most potent antimicrobial….a structuring agent…you know sleight of hand…and …. smoke mirrors and misdirection…etc.)

This product was co-developed with two of the genius chemists on this site.  And at no time did we ever discuss the most important aspects in open forum.  Secret…I don’t think so.  Maybe just business acumen?

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Paprik said:

So … I placed a quotation request for 1.52 kg … 
My total cost for products is 2995 THB (134 NZD)
Freight cost is 2300 THB (103 NZD)
Plus 4% Credit card transaction and it makes 5506.80 THB (250-ish NZD). 

I must say it is a bit expensive now. But again, it’s 1.5kg, from Thailand, good and quick freight … I will probably go ahead (actually will add some of the polymethylsilsesquioxane  )

Did you ask them…where the freight windows are?

You might be able to add quite a bit….or at least up to 2Kg….for the same freight cost.  The have freight windows….not by the specific weight of your package.

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Thank you all for your comments.  @PhilGeis comment about multiple layers of (even somewhat redundant) antagonist makes a lot of sense, and this is the format I currently have to follow with the less stellar performers.  Fortunately, with the aid of brilliant minds like @Pharma and @vitalys,  it is possible to create the set of hurdles that most bugs just look at …. and give up.    

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ggpetrov said:

Me personally, can’t afford the shipping costs. Some time ago I placed a test order, and when I got the shipping prise I almost got a hearth attack. The price was far beyond the cost of the overall order, so I cancelled it. If that matters I live in Bulgaria.

Yes, if you do not maximize their Shipping ‘tiers’ it will be expensive.  A 1 gram package and 500 gram package ship for the same rate.  So, you have to maximize the shipping tier, then they become quite viable.

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Paprik said:

Praises to them! I am preparing quite a decent order and am curious about the shipping cost. Will share after  

Also looking at the polymethylsilsesquioxane now! Thanks .. more money to spend  

There are several grades….the one I got…has the most absorbing abilities.  Various micron…will give different haptics.  I am more about absorption/matte finish, hence my choice.

Yes…I would like to know where the shipping tiers are…above 500 grams, please post.

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jemolian said:

It’s more of a repair ingredient, so i’m not surprised that it hasn’t given you any “ah hah” moments. 

I come at things from so many angles…it is hard for me to celebrate a single ingredient.

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jemolian said:

In the end did you buy the ceramides from there? 

No… I still had some from another vendor (plus a few samples).  To be honest…it (ceramides) have NOT given me any ‘Ah Hah’ moments…in any format I have put it in.

Something I put in my (currently on the shelf) over the top eye cream…. was really impressive.  But there were so many new things…I can’t put my finger on it.  I am wondering if it was not the PGA?

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GeorgeBenson said:

 and what is polymethylsilsesquioxane used for?

It is a haptic enhancer.  I use it in deodorant….and well… pretty much everything.  Everything feels better with it.

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Thank you both @MarkBroussard and @margaret .  I have properly lowered my expectations.  

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Are you saying….what is on your hand….is Just HEC and water?

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BTW….just a tidbit on citric acid.  

1) The reason it is so widely used….. It is incredibly cheap!
    a) If you find that a single drop is making such a dramatic swing in pH…then simply water it down.  If you have two ounces….then add 2 more ounces of water to it…making it 4 ounces.  Then the same drop…will only move the pH half as much.

2)  Granted I have a VERY NARROW focus in cosmetics…but other than cost… I can find no reason to use citric over lactic….(other than the aforementioned cost), and it should be noted, that lactic is generally more mild…meaning it will take more drops of lactic, to move the pH than a comparable amount of citric.  This might be a funny statement….coming from the guy who loves Triethyl citrate.   

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coco said:

Very interesting reading! A lot made much more sense. Thank you everyone. 

@Pharma thank you for providing enough info on Azelaic Acid. There was only so much I could found on the internet about it. 

@Graillotion can’t thank you enough. I have learnt so much from you, you probably have no idea ???? . Or you probably do since you are the kings on this page. 

I need to go back and recheck the whole formulation. I appreciate everyone’s input.

I am a mere vassal feeding on crumbs that fall from the Kings table.

I sent you a PM….. this page has an ‘Inbox’ at the top of the page…if you are not aware.

Aloha.

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Ghita37 said:

Dear Graillotion, 

 

2-so the story based on what you said is about the star ingredient in that cleansing oil for instance right? But when i go to competing brands and check for instance their cleansing oil. Can you please have a look at the DHCCARE website, its a Japanese brand and their cleansing oil is famous.
https://www.dhccare.com/deep-cleansing-oil.html 

I don’t see any story here about the oil, could you please tell me where it is? 

Their story…is under the tab ‘Our Story’.  

There are even several ‘sub-stories’ in the story.  Thank you for picking such a perfect example.  This is exactly what I/we mean by telling a story with your product.

Our Story – The #1 Direct Skincare Brand from Japan | DHC (dhccare.com)

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@coco , if you are not aware… In the above two responses, you have tapped into two brilliant PhD’s, which have given you invaluable information.  (Not talking about me!)  One of them….even wrote the ‘Book’.   

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coco said:

@PhilGeis oh! Caprylyl Glycol EHG is considered weak? What’s wrong with it? 

As this forum has several certified genius PhD’s for us all to appreciate, I want to share a morsel of genius I found in my e-mail today….that is oddly fitting.  I was asking this (probably Swiss) genius, about wetting agents (namely pentylene glycol) and he provided me the following explanation, which I think will help clarify Coco’s question.

The below information in Italic is not my own, but from one of my esteemed mentors:

A wetting agent is a surface-active compound, basically an emulsifier which isn’t strong enough and too water soluble to actually emulsify anything. What they do is reduce surface tension, they make water feel wetter and ‘more liquid’. This can cause viscosity loss such as observed with GMCY aka glyceryl caprylate and caprylyl glycol but it also helps to make oil droplets smaller and emulsifiers more efficient. Alcohol and soap are also good wetting agents… This means, those products make it easier for water to wetten surfaces such as your skin, water with wetting agents doesn’t pearl off but forms a thin clingy film. The liquid for your car’s windshield does basically the same, it’s a blend of methanol and/or ethylene glycol and a soap which wetten the glass and leave a fine film so the rain doesn’t give droplets all over it so you can’t see anything anymore but have the droplets ‘go flat’ and ‘flow’ all over the glass, forming a fine, transparent layer. Wetting agents also turn the surface of microbes wettable; stuff dissolved in water (such as preservatives) can actually touch the bugs and ultimately penetrate through their cell walls to finish them off.

Pentylene glycol is such a wetting agent. However, the optimal alkyl chain length to not just wetten surfaces but also disrupt cell membranes for most microbes is between C6 and C14 (IIRC, the rule of thumbs is C6-8 for bacteria and >C10 for fungi) which makes hexylene glycol, caprylyl glycol, GMCY, or EHG more efficient but also more likely to interact with the emulsifiers. This being said, such highly surface active ingredients are usually only used as preservatives, not multifunctionals or emollients, at their lowest effective level to avoid interactions with the emulsifying system. Sure, you could adjust the emulsifiers but each of the alcohols, glycols and what not has its own rules which also depend on the overall composition; hence, the adjustments needed are unpredictable and require trial and error.

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Ghita37 said:

 

 from oils? From my numerous reading and courses i undertsood that oils mainly play the role of occlusive, they bind or seal water in the skin and this is why when our skin is damp we should use oils to preserve that water in the skin, same goes for when we apply a cream or lotion, always follow it with oil to seal the hydration and prevent water from evaporating. wHAT do you say? 

 

.For the story, you mean does it have to be related to how the product is used or what kind of story?

I think Pattsi has covered most of your Q’s.

It sounds like you understand the oil aspect, and their function.

So marketing is the biggest part of anything cosmetic.  Some might say…there is nothing new under the sun.  Big cosmetic companies to some degree…mill out the same old base formula…with a different scent, packaging, and claim ingredient each season.  Which for all intents and purposes….is the same old thing…just freshened up.

Regarding story…well not a story of how to use it…that would be rather boring… yawn, yawn.  People want to hear how your product has a special magical ingredient that they are not going to find in the $5 drugstore brand.  They want to feel like they are saving the planet…by buying your product.  They want to feel like the landfills will have to close…if they buy your product.  They want to feel like buying your product will end childhood poverty….hehehe.   You get the picture.  Go to the websites of competing products…that you respect and want to emmulate.  Read their stories….I guarantee they have a story.

So as mentioned by others… Either create your story first…and build a product around it… Or build your product, and then creatively tell a compelling story about your product…and why your target customer will feel better for having purchased your product.

By the way…. if you have never felt squalane before…. I’m not sure what all the hype is….but it basically feels like mineral oil.  I think people just like the sound of the name?  (But it does sell product.)

So…. pick your oils….or pick your story…and then progress based on the first choice.

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coco said:

s I am planning to throw in a bunch of actives later. Thank you.

Caprylyl Glycol

Yes…get you pH lined out as soon as you have your water phase complete.  You can always adjust again later, if it requires.  And as said above…lactic is so much better any many ways…your skin will thank you.

And CG is well known for wreaking havoc on viscosity.

But when you say a bunch of actives later….guessing some of these will also break a polymeric emulsion.  🙂

Good Luck.

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Now obviously you do not want to use this information in your marketing.  You stick with the ‘lore’ and describe how wonderful each of the fatty acids in your product will benefit the purchaser’s skin…..and how much beauty and youth your product will bestow.     Good Luck!

PS: And some oils do have some free fatty acids….but for the most part….they are bound triglycerides.

If you really want to take this further…. research….fermented oils.  Where a bacteria has been introduced…and some of the triglycerides have been broken out.  

If I thought the customers were educated….that is the approach I would take.  

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Ghita37 said:

Hello everyone. im so grateful to all of you here for shedding some light on the matter. 
 

 Could you explain what is meant by Comedogenicity is a marketing issue i need to be concerned about. I dont have marula and squalane.I have oils such as grapeseed oil, sunflower, hempseed oil, roseoil, castor oil, coffee oil( need to double check this one) I also intend to add some vitamin c and some hyaluronic acid, green tea extract .I want it to deliver .Also what do you mean that the right oils are the ones that sell? so this means i dont need 1000 oils and i should pick two and also what do you mean i have some guidance as to what sells? 

I think I understand where you are coming from…and let me see if I can clarify some REALLY broad concepts.  Where to start…hehehe.

And maybe you will wish you had not stumbled onto this site…as you may leave disillusioned.

A while back…. someone in a different thread…. posed the question…why do so few cosmetic chemists have their own lines of products.  And I think the answer that rang the most true and poignant in my opinion was….”It is hard to market things you don’t believe in”.

I used to help out on a ‘beginner’ cosmetic site (had to finally leave because the ‘certificate holders’ were driving me absolutely insane with their …..Hmmmn….’knowledge’.    ) I am familiar with the thought process, and perceptions people enter the arena with.  So I will link a great video created by a PhD cosmetic chemist.  It will help you understand oils.  Once you understand oils…you will begin to understand the comments people have made about oils… Why you don’t need so many….just a few key oils that will ‘sell’ the product.

If I had to wager….I would guess that you believe all the different oils…bring some magic to your future potion.  This is mostly mommy blogger lore.  Sorry….the dream is gonna start to crumble…. run while you can!  You have probably been led to believe that oils are this beautiful amalgamation of fatty acids, each one eager to help your skin out.  In  reality….these fatty acids are bound up in a triglyceride…making them pretty much unavailable to your skin.  This will be well explained in the material I will link.  Now if you consume these oils…. let’s use the example of Krill or fish oil, your digestive tract will break these triglycerides apart, and you will realize any benefit these oils have.  Your skin….well not so much.
So, the skin itself has no real mechanism to break down a triglyceride….HOWEVER… there are some residents in and on your skin (friendly bacteria) that can break down a small…and I mean SMALL amount of triglycerides.  This is the only fatty acids you might realize from some magical, exotic sounding oil.  But keep in mind….the only reason the bacteria went to the effort of busting the triglceride….was so it could eat a portion of what was broken out.

So don’t mistake what I am saying… I firmly believe skin gets benefits from oil…but NOTHING NEAR what the mommy blogger sites preach.  Yes, oils of different make-ups will feel different…and absorb at different rates.  But as far as that magical benefit purported by the oil sellers…. well…you may need to do some research.

So NOW…if you look at some of the comments…as to why you don’t need 10 oils….maybe you can achieve some clarity to the intent.  One two or three oils will do all that oils can do.  You still need to choose them wisely, because they will have different feels and absorption rates…. but all that magic the mommy blogger sites have promised….you will not achieve.

So, choose the oils…that give the feel you are after.  After that….choose the oils that will sell, because that is what will determine your success or failure.  Did you attract the attention of the buyer.  And most importantly….. provide beautiful packaging, and a stunning story….and you are well on your way.

Please watch the attached video…is I think it will provide you with incredible clarity.  (Remember she is a PhD….IN THIS FIELD!)

Aloha.

Skincare Oils and Free Fatty Acids: The Science (with video) | Lab Muffin Beauty Science

the video:  Skincare Oils and Free Fatty Acids: The Science | Lab Muffin Beauty Science - YouTube

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Ghita37 said:

Hello Graillotion, thank you for your precious information.So a carrier oil can be comedogenic but when you apply it in a low concentration then its no longer comedogenic? Also should the concentration always be 5%? But since im formulating a cleansing oil, it cant be 5%, it should be more so in that case the comedogenity wont disapear? And what about the Isopropyl palmitate, i found this highly comedogenic which is the Bobbi Brown oil might have caused breakout. 

Even with something like a cleansing oil…. unless you have access to the mfg formula…you cannot tell what is in it at 30%…or what ingredients might be there at .01%.  Granted the first one, two or three…are probably at a substantial level…after that….you’ll typically find the more expensive oils….will be at an incredibly low rate (Actually…their goal is for you never to find this out.).  As it sounds like you might be new at this, small amounts like .01 or .1% are common inclusion rates of what we call ‘claim’ ingredients (those are often more expensive ingredients or ingredients that sound nice, but don’t really bring actual value, just perceived value).  Something that they like to bark loudly about on the label and marketing…but is in there at such a low rate, it does absolutely nothing….(granted we never discount the placebo effect… users will often boast about how well an ingredient included at that kind of rate….made their skin ________(fill in your own lovely adjective).)

Cosmetic ingredients below 1% inclusion (quite different than food) may be listed in any order the maker chooses.  So, just because something might be listed 4th on the INCI….it might be included at .01%, and something last on the INCI might be included at .99%.

So, in a commercial product…they might easily use the first oil at 90+%….and what you might perceive as a balanced mix….is far from it.