[Graillotion]

As mentioned above….. the water is hidden not only in the first ingredient, but in the second as well.

FYI in commercial formulas….the HA is NO WHERE NEAR the 1% line.

Many times, the HA is made in advance….as it takes 24 hours to fully hydrate….so it just makes sense. This is also an opportunity to introduce the real preservative to the formula….as the one listed simply won’t do the job. 😉 (Don’t ask for further clarification… 🤣 )

So, I am not aware of any regulation that says what percentage of water your HA slurry contains…. hence….I’m guessing….. AS MUCH AS THEY WANT. (Granted….correct INCI format would have you place it where the actual ingredient would fall (well….well…below 1% line) vs how much of the hydrated product you included.)

All in all….not a formula I would even attempt to learn from.

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

That does not sound like a formula for a cream.

Maybe, a little background before you get started…. you know….walk before you run?

This site offers a free introduction, and possibly some of your questions might be answered there, if you will invest the time in a FREE course.

Aloha

Start Here - Chemists Corner

• This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

chemistscorner.com

Start Here - Chemists Corner

Chemists Corner is a website about cosmetic science that will help you become a cosmetic chemist and formulator of beauty products.

[Graillotion]

First …Not my area. 😆

Second… surprised I did not see hexyl resorcinol on the list…. granted you listed two things by brand name….(not helpful).

When looking at a new venture…I always like to hear what George has to say on the topic….even if he is just regurgitating from dubious papers. 😉

Good luck.

Developing Skin-Lightening Products (ulprospector.com)

ulprospector.com

Developing Skin-Lightening Products

Skin lightening refers to the ability of a product to reduce hyper-pigmented areas or spots on the skin. These products, also referred to as skin-whiteners, bri

[Graillotion]

For interactions…. keep your cationics and anionics for the most part…. apart from each other.

Preservatives that use an organic acid, pretty much need to be formulated at 5.5 or below to have any efficacy…NO MATTER WHAT THE BS MARKETING MATERIAL SAYS.

[Graillotion]

I worked myself up from the bottom over the last 7 years. I have also contributed to some beginner sites, and see the pitfalls they tend to fall into.

• The errors most beginners make can be summed up as follows:

• Use WAY TOO MUCH GREASE (oils and butters). A little goes a long way….and more is always worse…not better. (What ever you think is right…cut it by 50%….and you’ll already be a better formulator.

• They rarely use enough emollient/esters….what makes good commercial stuff good….is the emollient/ester cascade. (And a fast-break polymeric is nothing to sneeze at.)

• Believe the plant extracts actually do something. They don’t. They just add to the preservation burden. You include them at .1% and market the crap out of them….but not much more.

• Rarely use enough humectants….and don’t use multiple forms. Most products…..customers will appreciate….if they simply moisturize. This is done with humectants….and humectants that are different. There is no ONE humectant. Glycerin is a good start …. but way better when you give it some friends.

• And the most important for last. Get your preservation from those that know, DO NOT DO A SURVEY OF OTHER BEGINNERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the most important aspect. The thing you will find in common with the cosmetic blogs are these: No formal education in a related field. Never worked a day in the cosmetic industry. These are NOT the people you want to be getting your preservation information from.

• Learn what the hurdle approach / hurdle technology is in cosmetics.

Until you understand that the preservation sellers are in a B2B format, and not required to tell you the truth….you will be completely lost. They will ALL say…. ‘Broad Spectrum’ ….. which literally means absolutely NOTHING. (Means kills or inhibits two or more things.) On a site like this, you have one of the most brilliant people in the field, on the topic, Dr Phil Geis. He is very generous with his time, and if you put a preservation type question in the header….he will usually jump in. Of course, preservations that pose as a dead ferment, nut, tree bark or berry…..are ludicrous cons that have been around forever, to feed the imaginations of the ignorant.

Good luck….and Aloha.

PSS: For bonus points….NEVER call anything a recipe… and formulas are done in grams and percentages. 😆

[Graillotion]

A lot of us in the USA and globally…use this Thai place. They are incredible…and use DHL shipping. You’ll have it in 5 days…after you approve your order.

They do have some nuances….like… 1-500 grams is the same base rate shipping… so best get your order right around 500 gm (mix and match). They will package to any size. Awesome with their paperwork…etc…etc.

And…best of all…they carry every ingredient you ever dreamed about.

Aloha

Polyglyceryl-10 Stearate (myskinrecipes.com)

myskinrecipes.com

Polyglyceryl-10 Stearate

Oil in Water Emulsifier

[Graillotion]

It is not heat sensitive…just add to your water phase up front.

As with any ingredient…try it neat…. 97% water 3% trehalose. Evaluate and adjust.

I use it at 3% in a deo formula…less in all others. The deo has no other sticky stuff like oils or humectants….so no issue at all. Generally I use betaine instead of trehalose in all other formulas.

• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Thank you for this little gem… I will tuck it away for future use.

In Steinberg’s context… what antioxidant is he suggesting should be used? @PhilGeis

• This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Use the emulsifier that gives the feel…and then build the rest into it. That is how it is done.

You can take 165…. void of texture (I call it a blank slate)….and literally build it into anything you can imagine. Much of the world is built on the back of 165….and the textures go from Yin to Yang…. black to white…. A to Z.

Work with the texturizers….the list is long and vast.

(Don’t ever ask OliveM 1000….. to feel nice. 😂 )

[Graillotion]

You’re asking a lot of your emulsifier. Usually, we ask it to emulsify well…. (not much more). The haptics are built with other pieces.

Granted….as mentioned….there are certain emulsifiers…..that just destroy haptics…right out of the gate. 😉

[Graillotion]

Well the good news is…. essentially ALL humectants are water soluble.

The sky is the limit. 😂

Two of my favorites are:

HydroVance aka Hydroxyethyl Urea …. should be noted…needs a buffer… a kiss of triethyl citrate will do the job

and

Hydroxypropyl Bis-Hydroxyethyldimonium Chloride (don’t let the word in the description about being cationic scare you off….the way the molecule is set up….it plays well with others).

I also like to always have an osmolyte as well.

Good luck

• This reply was modified 4 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

It ALMOST seems like you are correlating good products with customer purchases. 😂

Customer purchases are almost always correlated to your marketing story. The bigger the pile of BS you can create….the more likely you are to have a big pile of customers as well.

Always focus on your marketing….product is somewhat a moot point.

😆

If you want to learn from a successful seller…. you study their marketing approach… NOT the LOI/INCI!

• This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Wasn’t aware of any companies using ‘toxic’ ingredients! If you come across such a thing, please report to the FDA immediately.

If you look at the ‘baby’ product segment…. You will often see PE 9010. This is generally considered one of the very best for sensitive skin. It does have its weaknesses, so certainly not a standalone option. (The reference to baby products….is a synonym for non-irritating, or very low probability of irritation.)

The fake ferment should NOT be used for babies, as it has hidden ingredients, including salicylic acid!!!

• This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Not ChemMatt….and he is still around on occasion. 😉

[Graillotion]

Please understand….I view these ingredients as osmolytes, and don’t necessarily view them as strong humectants, albeit one of them is doing a pretty dang good job of it. Hence, I do not discard the trehalose as not having value…. Simply the test lended itself to lauding the humectancy of the betaine.

[Graillotion]

Let me show you three slides. Took betaine, and trehalose…. and just set them out in a room…. overnight. You can see the difference in the third slide…that was the next morning. NOTHING added….just left out in a room with relative humidity in the mid 70% range. Enjoy…..and then buy your betaine. 😉 Slide one is start of test, slide two is after a few hours, and slide 3 is the next morning. Aloha @ggpetrov

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[Graillotion]

My lab is far more humid than yours….Yup I live in a rainforest! 😂 It is that exact aspect…that makes it such a wonderful ingredient…. can you imagine what it is doing on your skin? (attracting moisture)

The key of course is…. the very moment you open the bag….you drop in some silica packets….and replace them every month or so. Sometimes it takes a little effort….should you desire to create the magic. If I can make betaine remain useful in a forest that gets 300 inches of rain a year, and humidity that never drops below 90%…. You can make it work as well. 😉

[Graillotion]

Just out of curiosity, why the 90C?

I thought my 85C was the top of the game…with my love of M 202 and behenyl alcohol.

Aloha.

• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Yes, I am very aware LGP is an F releaser! I was asking for the replacement (non F-releasing)…since that was a FORMER recommendation.

Also, very aware of the weaknesses of PE 9010…and how to bolster it. Problem is dealing with those that don’t. Those that want to learn…can be coached into the supporting cast. Those that think they have already gone the extra mile by simply including a preservative (And this segment is HUGE!) well, all you can do is cross your fingers. Better PE 9010…than having them chase the ‘G’ brand….and not use a pH where they even have any activity…(most of the time….cus the ‘tards’ advertise their organic acids work up to a pH of 8 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!) You told be the change in ownership…..would clean up their act…but have not seen a single movement in that regard. 🙁 (Marketing language that is consistent with their products performance.)

So, I was asking… If I had formerly recommended Liquid Germall Plus…. what would be the next best replacement waiting in line….to take its place?

[Graillotion]

Hahaha…. I was just telling Pharma yesterday….I save my ‘exercises in futility’ for voting. He has an unhealthy infatuation with US politics. 😂

So hypothetical question @PhilGeis , sometimes I help out on beginner forums….and it used to be my pairing of preservatives (not together…one or the other) when they would ask for a recommendation was…. PE 9010 or Liquid Germall Plus. For the beginner crew…that will probably be adverse to anything good… and only have access to beginner repacker ingredients…. What would be your replacement piece to recommend for a ‘One and Done’ drop in. (Of course I know that is the impossible answer….and hated to even present it that way…. but that is the very best you are going to hope for….other than getting them to add a chelate.)

Aloha…. Passed the weekends tropical storm, and preparing for the hurricane later this week.

[Graillotion]

Sodium lactate is another in that category….leaving what is generally perceived as a pleasant after feel.

[Graillotion]

Beautiful explanation. I am just baffled why the beginner sites promote stick blends as instruments of shear. Especially when for a few dollars more, they can buy a tool that gets quite close to your explanation, from Dynamic/Misceo.

I will enclose a picture of the head from my Dynamic….so people can view the tolerance between the bell and hammer.

I will also mention… Silverson has numerous videos on YouTube that show (but don’t explain well) some of these differences.

[Graillotion]

Speaking of a buffer…if the pH is low enough…you can just use some Triethyl citrate and it will do the job…. But why I jumped back on was…. some of the mfg propaganda has suggested that is aides in soaping. I have no idea if this is correct or not….cus I don’t have soaping issues as a lover of the silicone oils. But might be worth investigating. Memba…. TEC is an ESTER…and feels like a darn nice one. In and of itself it does not have a pH….so you can apply neat to your skin….even though it is an ester of citric acid. It is a special little gem in the tool box…. Just got two liters of it for the lab….last week.

PS: If I recall correctly…. Hydrovance will also break an AVC gel….so also a non-starter.

• This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Should be noted….some of my comments are self-canceling…ie : Sodium lactate and Aristoflex AVC…would be non starters in the same formula.

Another nice humectant that also leaves a nice skin feel…is Hydrovance, a type of urea. Does need a little buffer built in.

• This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

I have no idea what you are asking.

I don’t think I have really ever considered the option of the emulsifier dictating the haptics (granted they do a bit). I always looked at them as more the scaffolding that you hang the ornaments on.

So, I have always built my textures with the slippery stuff. That being said… It sounds like I am absolutely the wrong guy for the job…. I like light and dry….end of story. As an example….if you said make your dry and lite cream more rich and something…. I’d probably reach for Isostearyl Isostearate and replace the Dicaprylyl carbonate…. that would immediately alter the personality quite a bit. Other things that add richness are things like cetyl esters/palmitate or my preferred Myristyl Myristate. Richness is all in what you do with the ornaments. You should be able to take a 165 type (what I call a blank sheet of paper…with no personality)… and create a Hyundai or a Porsche from it. Don’t forget some of your classical refatting agents….maybe something as simple as Glyceryl oleate, might start pushing your project in the direction you want.

For feeling more moist…. at least at the moment of application….nothing can match a fast break from a polymeric like Aristoflex AVC…. dropping its load of water, with the first stroke across the skin. Don’t know it that fits in agenda based formulating…and don’t care. Some other tricks…would be toss a couple percent of pentylene glycol in….wanna make water feel wetter….bingo. I also think that tools like Lauryl Laurate really help with that first 10 second impression.

Moisture after feel….is all about your humectants…. make sure you have used two or three…. hard to paint the Mona Lisa with only one color on your palette. Some humectants…like sodium lactate not only moisturize…but leave what is generally perceived as a nice after feel as well… I am NOT a guy that EVER does glycerin and done. That is just something you have to learn from trial and error.

Well good luck….as mentioned….not sure what you were after….so just rambled for a bit. There is a Q&A with the formulators in a few hours….jump on there…and ask your Q’s.

• This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.