Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
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Always hard to beat the global ‘go to’ emulsifier, the ‘165’ type. INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate. To give additional boosting beyond the fatty alcohol… consider a water gelling agent, like a gum or polymeric. You can also add an anionic co-emulsifier at a rate of 1 part to 10, things like GSC, SSG, or PCP.
Good luck.
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As any formulator would do….do a knock-out test. Remove ONE ingredient at a time…and check results. Start with the most likely suspect…. In your case…fumed silica. 🙂
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Please list all ingredients.
Is the white cast…just during initial application (soaping)? Can it be rubbed away with effort? (Stearic acid is known for soaping.)
Otherwise, it might be an additional ingredient…but we don’t know what they are.
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No!
You get what you pay for. Guess who paid for the third-party test? ????
You can actually do this honestly and with integrity. You just have to know how to design the test….and what to include and exclude as benchmarks.
In a former life…I did this with 100% success and integrity. ‘Spin’ is a wonderful thing.
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When I look at the supplier listings….I do NOT see any of them….promoting ‘organic’. 🙂
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Since deo…is essentially a preservative soup anyway…. we had no idea the impact on preservation….since we were making something that was already….preservation on steroids. ????
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I don’t think it is very new. I checked my notes…and I spent March of 2022…trying to fit it in a deo formula (as an active)…and it certainly wasn’t a new concept…even then.
So been on the market a few years…and has NOT set the market on fire.
Neither of my consulting chemists….one of whom is Pharma…the Swiss genius…viewed it anything more than a ‘booster’, vs a full blown preservative that Ashland is touting it as.
So we viewed it more as a booster with skin benefits.
It did not make the final cut….for those following along at home.
Aloha.
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Typical process (O/W)…is to slowly add heated oil phase to heated water phase under light stirring…once combined then commence with shear. Most every mfg will have a clause for the reverse…as simply production set-ups might dictate the opposite. Almost without exception those will state combine the phases without stirring, and once combined….then commence with stirring until mixed, followed by shear.
These steps…depending on formula make-up….will generally help with the elimination of phase inversions.
Ummmh…..why do people still listen to those that have been proven to disseminate lore? If it were me…one ‘lore’ and you’re out. 🙂
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I assume you are using squalane, and not squalene? If so..what is the purpose of the Vit E? No real natural lipid that needs protecting? Claim value? I can understand that…but no need to include that much.
As mentioned…needs a chelate…another good option is TSGD aka GLDA aka Tetrasodium Glutamate
Diacetate, if you don’t want to use EDTAI have no issue with the inclusion rate of the PE 9010…as you don’t have a formula full of bug food. You could toss in some pentylene glycol…as an additional booster.
Based on the types of Vit C being used…I think you need a pH below 5. Did not see a mention of lactic acid…what is your native pH?
The combo of a fatty alcohol with a primarily steric hindrance emulsifier…has me a little puzzled…and wondering if this is why you question the stability? Fatty alcohols work between the phases….in that type of emulsion….not sure there is a ‘between’. Need someone with a little more brain power than I…to confirm the concept.
Good Luck. Get a chelate…and you’ll be on your way.
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I agree…try to get rid of the rose water…. you always hate to lose control of the quality of the water in the formula. ????
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That preservative package would be called ‘sketchy’ at best, and would be entirely pH dependent. So lets look at the big picture:
1) If you use sketchy preservatives…you must implement every hurdle in the book. Did they do this? ‘Ell No!
2) Mold typically wants an iron ion to thrive…one of many reasons we use a chelate. Did they do this? ‘Ell No!
3) The ‘preservatives’ mentioned are 100% pH dependent, and will essentially not show up for work, if the pH is above 5.5. Did they do this? ‘Ell no…there is no acid listed in the INCI..and the native pH of those ingredients will more than likely be above 5.5. See typical organic acid performance vs pH in attached.
4) Bug food included. Is the bug food functional? ‘Ell no, so it really didn’t need to be in there. Did they enhance the preservation to account for the bug food? ‘Ell No!
Where are the fundamental pieces of the hurdle approach? It appears as though this formula (actually lets go with ‘recipe’) was designed by a beginner. I would be disappointed…if it defied the laws of science… AND DID NOT MOLD! 🙂
All in all….I’m not sure why they even made a formula like this. What is the point, even if it did not rot…what skin benefit would it have? This formula (or maybe better suited to the word….recipe) is pretty much on par with mommy blogger material!
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Yes….in the marketing, they do mention cationic.
What does that mean in the scope of preservation?
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Sorry…..some glitch cut me off……..
…… Continued…….. For the PET test/s that you consider superior (more rigorous) than USP 51…. do they contain additional pathogens beyond the typical 5? A whole different slate….or a slate of the 5 plus some bonus contenders? I guess what I am asking…..what makes it more rigorous?
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So, in the land of poor preservatives that saturate the market….is it safe to say….the only marketing leg they stand on….is the MIC numbers…which in a nutshell….have very little applicable value?
Aloha
BTW…. for the PET test/s you consider superior to
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If MIC numbers have so little value…. What readily available information can one use, to make a proper evaluation?
Again….I am not using these products….just trying to help those that have drunk the Kool-Aide.
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@PhilGeis … so you are telling me….MIC numbers for organic acid based preservatives…are provided in an almost neutral environment….where they are essentially inactive?
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no….it is just in suspension.
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Dr Phil….has even written a book on the topic…. if you have interest. 🙂
Aloha
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Been using the B12 for color for a long time. Simply increase or decrease for intensity. Have not seen any color degradation (with room temp). Very pleased with the results.
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Ignorance is an all encompassing lifestyle choice. It rarely changes.
Good luck in your journeys.
FYI…. When it comes to mommy blogger lore…. I have come to the conclusion….90+% is some form of bad….either partially incorrect, incorrect, or grossly incorrect. Not good odds….in fact just doing the opposite of what the lore slingers say….you will garner reasonably good odds of success. ????
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You’d be fine with either of the first two (not sure of the value of using two…other than ‘claim’), especially if you already have them.
The net is full of bad lore on the pH range of using niacinamide. You might find this a good read:
Using Niacinamide in an acidic formulation | Realize Beauty (wordpress.com)
realizebeauty.wordpress.com
Using Niacinamide in an acidic formulation
I have been having an interesting discussion with one of my clients this week about formulations containing Niacinamide and AHA’s. Niacinamide is also known as Vitamin B3 and it is a great s…
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Numbered response:
1) Do you normally feel a need to preserve saturated hydrocarbons? I think if you dig a little deeper….you will discover that squalane…is a very different beast than you imagine. Think mineral oil. ???? Playing devils advocate….even if you did feel a need to treat it…that rate is 5X more than you would need. The mommy blogger sites are pretty comical in their adamant support of increasing sales of Vitamin E, for vendors selling it. I’ll drop a pic in…that shows the expected use rate in industry (see attached).
2) Absolutely, do it, a no brainer.
3) I already checked. 🙂 They do have a nice overlap in their respective ranges.
4) Now the tough one. I think if you looked at polymeric only emulsions….the use of fatty alcohols would be pretty rare. Yes, they can be used in many ways…but their strength comes from working in the interface between phases. This is also why you rarely find them in an W/O emulsion. However..I have seen people use them for anything and everything…from lubricant to physical structuring builder.
So Gel cream…to me…that is the most elegant of the emulsions…but when I imagine it, I envision a traditional non-ionic or anionic emulsion, with a pleasant inclusion of steric hindrance from a polymeric or group of polymerics. So in that situation, the fatty alcohol has its traditional place to operate. As I look at the emulsifier you selected (which I have never used), I struggle to see where the fatty alcohol can logically play? But again….my knowledge does not fully extend to the end of this concept.
So about all I can say….is I love a gel aspect… I like to create my version with 165 + Aristoflex AVC, and if I’m in a good mood…even some carbomer. Fatty alcohols have a natural fit in this system. Seems like if I removed the 165… the fatty alcohols no longer have a place to play (if all that is left is steric hindrance)? Not that they wouldn’t do something….it would just be something different from how I would normally use them. 🙂 Well…maybe one of the more experienced ones will drop in, and set me/you straight. 🙂
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….NOTE: I do personally believe…. Hexanediol…is one of THE BEST potentiators of the many options. Love the stuff! (Peek at carbon chain length…if you want to know why it is better than some of the other glycols.)
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In the Korean example…they are using Hexanediol as the primary (cough, cough) and EHG as a potentiator. IMHO, that is not a prudent system (two potentiators does not equal one preservative… ???? ), but someone caving to pressure from the eco-nuts. Don’t get me wrong….there is not a formula that goes out my door….that does not have both those ingredients….but to me….that is just two really good boosters.
Unfortunately one of the big suppliers…is pushing Hexanediol….as a adequate preservation system. ????