[Graillotion]

I think most of us view preservation as a system, and not a drop in component. A system of hurdles, with the preservative being the star of the show, but not carrying the whole show.

As you know it starts with the chelate, followed by the pH, followed by the glycols, followed by the preservative, followed by the packaging, followed by the testing. As, well as not adding bug food like aloe, plant extracts etc.

Good luck. Oh…and for good measure… PE 9010 is one of the most widely used globally but is a tic weak on gram + and more than a tic weak on YMF….so you need to bolster those up, some of which can be accomplished via the hurdles.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

GMS with the SE tag…. likes a little higher pH that most emulsifiers. You did not mention pH.

[Graillotion]

These two things are not in the same category. It is like asking should I buy a pick-up truck or a motorcycle. If you want to help friends move, buy the truck. If you want to go fast, buy the motorcycle.

1) You need something that provides shear (if making traditional emulsions).

2) You need something to stir the soup from emulsification to cool down.

Did I miss something? You need to buy…..one of each.

[Graillotion]

Maybe the simplest way to explain it might be…….. at your pH, you are paying for GMS SE …. but you’re getting GMS. 😉

[Graillotion]

GMS SE is a potassium soap, and functions as a soap, hence why the mfg’s recommend that it be used at higher pH’s. Maybe the rest of the formula can carry it?

If you want something anionic at a low pH, look at SSG.

[Graillotion]

You get full claim value…at any inclusion rate.

[Graillotion]

What makes you say it has a lot???

Are you privy to the formula?

I only looked at the 1st one…and the HA is below the 1% line….so probably typical use rates.

The marketing is clever enough to discuss 5 types of HA….to throw off your cognitive abilities.

I saw nothing there to claim more than claim levels of HA.

It seems to have the typical humectants that do all the work…and get none of the glory. 😉

[Graillotion]

I just saw they also had Sodium lactate as well…. which will break a polymeric in a heartbeat as well.

Not sure what level company this is…. but I see beginners destroy their polymeric networks all the time…. without ever realizing it (never test against their ingredient panel). So, if they have a low grade chemist….they might not even realize their polymerics is doing nothing. Sometimes we give people more credit for intellect, then they actually have. 😆

[Graillotion]

Clearly the NaPCA is below the 1% line….hence it could easily be .01% and in for just the claim.

Over the years…I have NOT found the value of NaPCA, and when I confer with my peers, they tend to agree with me. (Beyond good claim value…. since it is part of NMF.)

The polymeric is Aristoflex AVC, which is probably one of the most hyper-sensitive polymerics on the market…. so I would assume the inclusion of NaPCA is very very low.

BTW…. you can buy PCA without the Na …. just saying. 😉

Aloha

Just for fun…. make a slurry of Aristoflex AVC, and water….. add drops of NaPCA while stirring….till it loses viscosity. I think it will shock at how quickly the steric hinderance let’s go! 😆

• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Master of Science in Cosmetic Science | UC Online

online.uc.edu

Master of Science in Cosmetic Science

Our Master of Science in Cosmetic Science is globally recognized as one of the oldest cosmetic science graduate programs in the country and offered online.

[Graillotion]

Sorry can’t help, as my skin is a bit more acidic than yours. 😉

TEC is nothing more than an expensive emollient at that pH. 😉 (Remind yourself of what it is….and what it is supposed to do.)

[Graillotion]

not familiar with that last line ingredient…. but I have used Sodium Metabisulfite on occasion, and the scent is not soon forgotten. 😉

Make a small batch of the formula…leaving out the last line….and see if you still have the odor. (Aka: knockout experiment.)

[Graillotion]

Maybe a couple things to look at:

Many natural colorants are pH dependent. You have included an ingredient that will change pH until it is exhaused….meaning you have induced your own pH drift. Remove that and see it if persists.

Many natural colorants will oxidize with time (and not that much is required). Consider antioxidants. Memba, they only work in the phase they are soluble in, so you might need both a water and lipid soluble one.

Consider packaging as well….often light is your enemy in a situation like this.

[Graillotion]

When you see an INCI like this:

That last grouping is typically (all though possible) not added as individual ingredients. As some of the preservatives that get used by the ‘natural’ folk have ended up on the naughty list. I am not an EU expert…but I do believe that part of that listing requirement…is to post them at the end.

[Graillotion]

The reason people start with PE 9010…. it is one of the few….socially acceptable preservatives that does a good job on the dreaded gram- bacteria. The other loose ends….are easy to address with a little bolstering. I can’t think of a better….more socially acceptable start point to get Gram -.

[Graillotion]

Aloha.

I am very well aware of the concern with a HIGHLY ethoxylated product. My interest is in cause/effect in LOW ethoxylated products. Like a moisturizing cream or lotion. 😉

Poison is always in the dosing. Trying to find where the line is.

[Graillotion]

Thank You Matt! Look forward to hearing you tomorrow in the Q & A …. if my alarm can wake me in the middle of the Hawaiian night! I have a SPDMA question all spooled up for you…. if Perry doesn’t discriminate too hard against those that took the time and prepared questions in advance. 😂

• This reply was modified 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Here yah go:

Which emulsifier is more robust: PEG 100 Stearate or Ceteareth 20? - Chemists Corner

chemistscorner.com

Which emulsifier is more robust: PEG 100 Stearate or Ceteareth 20? - Chemists Corner

I have always thought that the 165 type (Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate) was the industry's most robust emulsifier.  Somehow my matriculation through the cosmetic…

[Graillotion]

If you search the forum high and low… there have been discussions…..and they might not all be in the same thread….. about the various pairings…and why Ceteareth-20 is paired with Cetearyl, vs why GMS is paired with PEG-100 Stearate. Those are not random occurrences…but a bit of science behind them.

GMS is often used as a viscosity increaser…. but if you get the level up too high…can induce phase inversions. So just test through them. There are a gazillion ways to increase viscosity….it is just a matter of cost….and if you enjoy the haptics it brings.

Aloha.

NOTE: I asked a similar question about the pairings….in the last year…. maybe put Ceteareth-20 in the search bar….and look for my name…. I think you’ll find it.

[Graillotion]

Thank you….I think I found what I was looking for. I KNEW….it would be all about the money. And the concern was that alcohol for consumption is heavily taxed, and denatured can be sold for much less due to the fact it does not bear much of the tax burden.

However… living on a tropical island in the middle of the Pacific….changes a lot of the variables. I cannot just call up Lab Alley, and have them ship me ethanol due to most everything coming to the island by air. Hence, I can actually buy 190 proof ethanol, taxes and all, at the liquor store for less than I can get the cheap stuff shipped here.

This statement from the FDA link:

“To prevent the ethyl alcohol in a cosmetic from being diverted illegally for use as an alcoholic beverage, it may be “denatured.” This means that it contains an added “denaturant” that makes it undrinkable.”

The way I read that (with an emphasis on the word ‘may’), if I pay the taxes at the retail liquor store, then everyone is happy. If anyone has seen something that contradicts this, please advise me.

Aloha and Thank You.

[Graillotion]

Hawaii USA.

[Graillotion]

I received my samples (WS FO’s) last night. The first one I tried turned by crystal clear water/ethanol/fairy dust….. very milky. I was rather disappointed.

Not a deal breaker…. as I don’t plan to package in clear bottles.

I was advised by my mentor to just use my old standbys (OS FO’s) + SOLUBILISANT LRI …. but I had such a magically short and beautiful LOI….I did not want to mess it up. 😉

[Graillotion]

How much is enough? 😆 NONE is enough.

Based on the fact that after water they have two industry standard humectants… I’d suspect they went .01% X 5 versions….and came to a rather industry standard .05%. 😉

That is an ingredient…..where less is almost always better. (But an ‘ell of a CLAIM ingredient.)

• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Graillotion.

emailformula.png 127 KB Image File - Click to view

Options

• Copy Download Link

[Graillotion]

Response to pH will be directly correlated to the individual. Some can handle higher pH….others cannot. You cannot paint that canvas with a broad brush!

[Graillotion]

Umh…. TEC does not have pH. Typically when ingredients don’t have a measurable pH….they are added to water…and that reading is used. Congratulations !!!! You now know the pH of the water they added. TEC is an ester….the citric is bound…it takes lower pH’s….if you want any of it let go. Any result you got…was likely form other inputs.

Good luck.