[Graillotion]

I enjoyed this one today:

Man who asked ChatGPT about cutting out salt from his diet was hospitalized with hallucinations

nbcnews.com

Man who asked ChatGPT about cutting out salt from his diet was hospitalized with hallucinations

A case study in a medical journal reported that the 60-year-old man replaced sodium chloride with sodium bromide after consulting the AI bot.

[Graillotion]

I don’t think any of us work in ‘Brand Names’. A preservative LOI would be a wee bit helpful.

Vit E…is an antioxidant….why is that mentioned in this context?

As well…. preservatives tend to be formula specific….I doubt many of the brain trust will commit without a full understanding of the formula. To do otherwise….might be a bit foolish.

[Graillotion]

Thank you for your responses, @Perry44 and @ketchito .

I have taken to heart the hammering into my thick head of Ketchito’s ‘Like kind’ packing and structuring. The part I left out was…. this emulsion (which is designed to be a thick cream) is supported by BTMS as a co-emulsifier, and behenyl behenate and behenyl alcohol as the structurants. It has made a truly amazing cream…. that fits the goals to a ‘T’. (and of course being the ester King………… 😅 )

Thank you for your time. Always appreciated.

BTW…. Valerie sells a version of BTMS 50 with no C 18!

The other major breakthrough…..has been the discovery of Cetyl-HEC… OMG…where has this been all my life????

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

So…. what maybe we hear you saying is………. You want to bow to consumer pressures…. and create a safe product without using certain groupings of preservatives?

In that case…. Dr Geis might ask….what your ethos allows…..before making a recommendation.

• This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

First a correction: You said: “

• I want to avoid common preservatives known for irritation, like parabens or formaldehyde releasers, if possible.”

That sounds like mommy blogger lore. Can you provide scientific peer reviewed material to back up this claim? I think in reality….the EXACT opposite is the correct statement.

If you disclose your surfactant blend, great minds like Dr Phillip Geis, that frequents this site…can make a significant contribution. Surfactant inclusions and rate…can alter the needed preservation.

PE 9010 is my starting place for most things…but I am not working with cleansers. The weakness being in the fungal category, where it should be bolstered, unless Dr Geis thinks your surfactant load will appease this burden.

……… As well, ‘Broad spectrum’ is a marketing term. It simply has no applicable meaning. It is stolen from the medical field, where there is some application.

Good Luck.

• This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Yes…as a polymer @evchem2

However, with something a little bit more specific aspects in mind. I am making a viscous cream, which currently has a melt point around 38-39C. As a product that might spend some time in a brown truck (UPS) during shipment…and potentially hitting those kind of numbers… looking for some heat stability (not losing its form during shipment, which may facilitate leakage from the container)…otherwise the formula does not need this ingredient, as I already have Cetyl-HEC in place. Their marketing promotes thermal stability as well.

I do have one other question… the marketing made an interesting claim of …. “Its anionic character allows enhanced compatibility with cationic ingredients.” As my formula has 1.5% BTMS 50 as part of the emulsifier (balance is non-ionic) ….. would this gum be ‘compatible’?

Gellan gum… seems to be sourced from the same thing….so as long as the acyl type is the same…. would you suspect them to be ‘interchangeable’? I was able to find a blurb…. where George Deckner seems to pull back the curtain….and use the language interchangeably. I know the brand linked above… on another product I use…. they source from Sisterna…and I get identical performance…buying the Food grade (lower price) over the cosmetic grade.

Aloha, and thank you for your time and consideration.

[Graillotion]

Is this the poor man’s option?

Amazon.com : Pure Gellan Gum LT100 - High Acyl ⊘ Non-GMO ☮ Vegan ✡ OU Kosher Certified - 50g/2oz : Grocery & Gourmet Food

[Graillotion]

.1% of MTE is plenty, as would adding the same amount of ROE.

As both beg to be oxidized…store them in the refrigerator…and throw them out after 6 months, unless you are nitrogen blanketing them between uses. Minimize number of times you open the lid.

Generally, I recommend people use .1%….simply for the fact that they struggle to measure quantities less than that….as you can see use rate typical of industry in attached.

If you are buying oils off the street….chances are incredibly high…that they have already been adulterated with MTE. If you are buying oils that originated from ICSC out of Denmark, they were treated with ROE as they were processed.

Good Luck.

AP.png 105 KB Image File - Click to view

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[Graillotion]

Note…AP will not go clear into straight oils…so do not mix that in…UNLESS you are only making emulsions….where it works perfectly to create a synergy.

[Graillotion]

Maybe this about sums it up?

Just change a couple words around……..and conclude that you better learn to make it yourself. 😉

[Graillotion]

I assume this is not for human or animal use….?

Gums….any of them… feel gross and are simply tolerated to acquire water gelling. Cut the rate to .3 to .5%

Olive M 1000…. one of the weaker emulsifiers, generally promoted to beginners, as it soaps like crazy and feels very heavy. Needs to be bolstered with a co-emulsifier and fatty alcohols / waxy esters. Consider adding it to the water phase…so it at least makes it less soapy. Addition of dimethicone should make it at least visually and application tolerable.

Extracts are for claim….and typically used at corresponding levels…. usually, .1% or .01 or .001%.

Essential oils are often toxic at high levels. Your formula seems to be WAY beyond IFRA recommendations.

Hate to say it… but you need to pump the brakes and consider taking a course. This site offers even a beginner FREE entry level option, that would have likely prevented much of your concerns. The formula lacks many of the basic fundamentals. I suspect the preservative is lacking as well, but fortunately you used an abbreviation, to keep us guessing.

Good luck with the course.

[Graillotion]

From the point of view of just using Goofle… Ai is as worthless as tits on a boar. It simply pulls material from Mommy blogger sites and presents it as accurate. Which of course it is not.

I realize that is not the aspect your question is directed at…but it is sending beginners and sub-beginners down a treacherous and slippery slope. If you thought it was bad before….you ain’t seen nut’n yet!

[Graillotion]

I have received a response from the re-packer….and yes I was floored by the fact that someone with competance replied…this has NEVER happened before! (At repacker level)

Here is the response….and YES…there is a diffrence in their two offerings (same INCI). I would still like to hear your real world results…as well. Just dropping the response…so others can learn as well:

Vendor response:

” Thank you for reaching out! The two ingredients are very similar but do have some distinct differences. They are derived from different sources and have different chemical structures. In terms of how the differ in a formula:

Hemisqualane: Dry, satin/matte finish – best use a as a silicone alternative and when you want a lighter weight and non-greasy finish.
C13-15Alkane: Slightly dewy/glossy finish, can feel heavier than Hemisqualane – best used for water-resistant formulas and products meant for longer wear.”

I am acutely aware…that same INCI means very little in cosmetics (hence the original question) ….as attached image will demonstrate. 😉

• This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Temperature stress is typically heavily correlated to duration. Hence when we stability test…we do not incubate for 24 hours…or 48 hours, but much longer. Go for it…. or wait for the cooler months.

[Graillotion]

So in lies the quandary…. how does one reduce the bad guys…without annihilating the good guys. Some of the great current generation medical concerns, are casting haunting shadows…..towards the messed-up microbiome, with mouth microbiome being one that is under suspicion…. a case of what was thought to be excellent oral hygene….might be becoming the actual pariah.

I hear you….on the overuse of disinfectants…. enhancing negative oral scents. I have worked extensively in underarm odors…. and many products (especially the mommy blogger material) will actually accentuate odors….once they get past the efficacy range. This is a direct result of imbalance. If you raise pH of the armpit with your potion….(assuming you already know the stinky parts of skin….feet, groin and pits…. all have a significantly higher skin pH than the balance of the body)…. then as the skin returns to the desired pH levels….the microbiome that is best adapted to high pH, is the first to recover. Of course, we know the odor causing bacteria….are especially well adapted and prefer a slightly higher pH. The people that use those beginner formulas….are a SPECIAL kind of RIPE…. when they take a day off. 😂

• This reply was modified 3 days, 9 hours ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Question…… First, I have NO plans to EVER make toothpaste. 😁 I do however want to be a prudent and educated consumer. I have come to the conclusion that the mouth has an important microbiome, which we should not be killing on a wholesale level.

With this in mind…. are there certain ingredients (which I would want to avoid) if I am not looking for the wholesale slaughter of the oral microbiome? With this in mind… I have stopped using mouthwash a number of years ago. So… I guess you can address the question (should you accept to answer) either as ingredients to avoid….or brands/versions of brands that you would recommend. This on both toothpaste and mouth rinse.

Currently….due to being ‘old school’ use a fluoridated toothpaste once a day, as well as a hydroxyapatite toothpaste, once a day.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

They are using those fun words “Broad Spectrum” we all love so much. Correct me if I am wrong Dr Geis… aren’t the benzoates/benzoic weak on Gram -, even under ideal conditions?

Albeit they are focusing our attention that their product is used by ‘WalMart’, so I guess that is a pretty high standard to be held…. 😉 (Isn’t that the same bar that P&G and L’Oréal use?)

AmpliPQ™ – Curie Co

[Graillotion]

I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer….but there is a brand that rhymes with GeoTard, that says their organic acid based preservative will work at something like 8 or 8.5. 😅 Hey, if your gonna pull BS…might as well go big!

It appears as all my books….are out of date. My how chemistry has changed since I slept! 😉

[Graillotion]

@ketchito The question begs to be asked then……. Why is BTMS typically paired with C1618 and occasionally with just C16… and I have not seen a commercial offering with it paired with C22?

Granted I have created this pairing independently ( but still get some C16 along for the ride)….but must be some reason it has not been done on a large scale???

Note: I always speak from a typical emulsion point of view… moisturizers, creams and lotions (and in this case…cream deo). I don’t do ‘hair’ anything. 😉

Sorry… my mind never ceases.

[Graillotion]

Thank you for your investigation. 😉

[Graillotion]

I think you meant OM 1000 is non-ionic, and best paired with something that has a charge, for ideal stability. 😉

[Graillotion]

Since 100PPM of quality material is what you need….. I am suggesting 200PPM of suspect material (total). Hence… 100PPM when it arrives….and 100PPM when you make product…. That gives 200PPM.

Refrigerated storage….is incredibly valuable. Some lipids will solidify under those conditions…just bring them out far enough in advance that they return to their ambient state and consider shaking before using….if you noticed any change in form, due to cold storage.

[Graillotion]

If you are looking for hard numbers… 100ppm… is what you need of either of the aforementioned ingredients. 😉 If you are buying from anywhere other than the mfg…..then at least double that….as we must assumed it has been compromised and mishandled.

[Graillotion]

The most brilliant minds in the oil world… use ROE (ICSC). Combined with the fact that adulteration is most likely to occur as MTE…. ROE is a wonderful choice.

At .1% it is improbable…that you are nearing pro oxidation, unless you are buying re-packer oils that have been adulterated. I tend to use those numbers…as I mostly deal with beginners….and getting them to measure less than that….is well…… 😅

So ideally…. life looks like this: You buy fresh sourced oils directly from the source. When they arrive at your facility….you treat them with a half rate of whatever potion you land on. Then off to the refrigerator they go. When you formulate with them…. once again add a half aliquot of your anti-ox potion, to make the total aliquot you have landed on.

This is just my format…. but I’m a little bit of an odd duck. 😉

[Graillotion]

Sure it can be stable. With that emulsifier…pH is everything! Needs to be a bit higher than most….or you will ‘un-make’ the soap. 😅