Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
-
I saw a gelling agent…. GMS, and a fatty alcohol and a thickener…(stearic).
I wouldn’t expect that to hold much together. Stearic does not emulsify until it is converted to a stearate soap at high pH. (I missed the part about pH?) Were you counting on that?
How are competitive benchmarks held together?
-
This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Graillotion.
-
This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by
-
Most beginners use magnesium hydroxide… maybe if you use that as your query you will get returns.
Magnesium oxide when combined with water (sweat) has a pH of 10-11. The reason your do not get the pH burns that you got from baking soda is that it is far less soluble in water than the BS is. BS releases that horrible pH on the unspecting skin….all at once. The mags, due to solubility….might for lack of a better term …. be considered ‘timed release’ high pH.
You seem to be grasping at random concepts you have seen around the net. TEC needs a low pH to function. You are not providing it, so it does nothing of what you think it is supposed to do. It is simply a high-cost ester in your package. Drop it.
-
This reply was modified 2 weeks, 4 days ago by Graillotion.
-
This reply was modified 2 weeks, 4 days ago by Graillotion.
-
This reply was modified 2 weeks, 4 days ago by
-
I am sure that the food industry follows the cosmetic industry in regard to ‘tricks of the trade’. In cosmetics it is often the case that Vit E is added (adulterated) to oils that have sat in the system longer than was initially intended. Hence sometimes by the time it gets to the end user… adding any additional Vit E is already in the realm of pro-oxidant vs the desired realm of antioxidant.
Hence, when I preserve oils that don’t originally source from ICSC out of Denmark, I focus more on ROE (Rosemary Oil Extract…. Not rosemary EO!), Ascorbyl palmitate, and one final option (that I don’t use) is sodium phytate. Since oils sourced from ICSC have unlikely (assuming no middleman) been adulterated with MT-E …. one can safely add a small amount of MT-E and still get the good from it.
Mixing more stable oils…. do not enhance the stability of the less stable oils…. it simply reduces their inclusion rate… (not a bad concept).
Oxidation…. can be visualized by a snowball rolling down (yeah, I see the irony of this illustration to someone from India) a hill. It starts small and increases in mass and speed. Oxidation is the same! Hence starting with the freshest oils…and treating them the moment you receive them (vs when you use them in formula) are all proactive steps you can take. Buy the smaller quantities, so you use them faster and replace them sooner. Last, but surely the most important….store your oils in the refrigerator.
Good Luck.
-
I am at a complete loss. Why are you asking your emulsifier to bring the viscosity? I couldn’t imagine a scenario I would not appreciate more. Emulsifiers generally don’t feel that nice. They have ONE JOB…. to emulsify the phases. Let them do their job. You use only the amount it takes to accomplish a stable emulsion. What if you want a thin emulsion…and your emulsifier brough viscosity?
This is why the 165 is sooooooooooo appreciated globally….. it allows an incredible range of viscosity; you simply thicken to taste. You thicken with things that feel nice….NOT emulsifiers. 🤮
-
The best emulsifier combo is…. the one that holds things together for longer than the shelf-life of the product. It is also one that gives you the freedom to create any viscosity your project calls for. I use 165 to make thin lotions….or the thickest of creams….. because it holds thing together. The viscosity…..and how that is achieved….is a completely separate topic.
-
-
How about ethanol? That is so safe…I’ve actually even heard of people drinking it. 🤣
-
And under the category of… ‘What can’t betaine do…”
-
-
Looks like Gram - stole the show! 😉
-
Not an expert….but I would say that it falls squarely on the shoulders of being a petroleum derivative. When you rename it something like ‘baby oil’ 😂 … then you’ll fool at least 75% of them.
I am always tickled to see them flock to squalane…. another hydrocarbon. Isn’t that just squalene that has been processed like margarine? 😂 (Hydrogenated squalene.)
In this industry, once you get a ‘black eye’, it is very tough to make a comeback…and this is exacerbated by the fact that the big boyz don’t even try…..they cave-in to the whiners….instead of attempting the more difficult course of education.
Oh well…………… (Maybe you can call it dinosaur based squalane….and you’ll have a real hit?) 😂
-
Dr Geis, were you willing to take a shot at this question….maybe establish a ‘level’ of ethoxylation that phenoxy can be compatible with, or maybe the better wording might be…. not compromised? @PhilGeis
-
I think most of us view preservation as a system, and not a drop in component. A system of hurdles, with the preservative being the star of the show, but not carrying the whole show.
As you know it starts with the chelate, followed by the pH, followed by the glycols, followed by the preservative, followed by the packaging, followed by the testing. As, well as not adding bug food like aloe, plant extracts etc.
Good luck. Oh…and for good measure… PE 9010 is one of the most widely used globally but is a tic weak on gram + and more than a tic weak on YMF….so you need to bolster those up, some of which can be accomplished via the hurdles.
Aloha.
-
GMS with the SE tag…. likes a little higher pH that most emulsifiers. You did not mention pH.
-
These two things are not in the same category. It is like asking should I buy a pick-up truck or a motorcycle. If you want to help friends move, buy the truck. If you want to go fast, buy the motorcycle.
1) You need something that provides shear (if making traditional emulsions).
2) You need something to stir the soup from emulsification to cool down.
Did I miss something? You need to buy…..one of each.
-
Maybe the simplest way to explain it might be…….. at your pH, you are paying for GMS SE …. but you’re getting GMS. 😉
-
GMS SE is a potassium soap, and functions as a soap, hence why the mfg’s recommend that it be used at higher pH’s. Maybe the rest of the formula can carry it?
If you want something anionic at a low pH, look at SSG.
-
She is already chatting with one of the world’s foremost experts on preservation! Dr Geis, literally wrote the book! 😉
-
The reason people start with PE 9010…. it is one of the few….socially acceptable preservatives that does a good job on the dreaded gram- bacteria. The other loose ends….are easy to address with a little bolstering. I can’t think of a better….more socially acceptable start point to get Gram -.
-
Aloha.
I am very well aware of the concern with a HIGHLY ethoxylated product. My interest is in cause/effect in LOW ethoxylated products. Like a moisturizing cream or lotion. 😉
Poison is always in the dosing. Trying to find where the line is.
-
Thank You Matt! Look forward to hearing you tomorrow in the Q & A …. if my alarm can wake me in the middle of the Hawaiian night! I have a SPDMA question all spooled up for you…. if Perry doesn’t discriminate too hard against those that took the time and prepared questions in advance. 😂
-
This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Graillotion.
-
This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by
-
Here yah go:
Which emulsifier is more robust: PEG 100 Stearate or Ceteareth 20? - Chemists Corner
chemistscorner.com
Which emulsifier is more robust: PEG 100 Stearate or Ceteareth 20? - Chemists Corner
I have always thought that the 165 type (Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate) was the industry's most robust emulsifier. Somehow my matriculation through the cosmetic…
-
If you search the forum high and low… there have been discussions…..and they might not all be in the same thread….. about the various pairings…and why Ceteareth-20 is paired with Cetearyl, vs why GMS is paired with PEG-100 Stearate. Those are not random occurrences…but a bit of science behind them.
GMS is often used as a viscosity increaser…. but if you get the level up too high…can induce phase inversions. So just test through them. There are a gazillion ways to increase viscosity….it is just a matter of cost….and if you enjoy the haptics it brings.
Aloha.
NOTE: I asked a similar question about the pairings….in the last year…. maybe put Ceteareth-20 in the search bar….and look for my name…. I think you’ll find it.
-
Thank you….I think I found what I was looking for. I KNEW….it would be all about the money. And the concern was that alcohol for consumption is heavily taxed, and denatured can be sold for much less due to the fact it does not bear much of the tax burden.
However… living on a tropical island in the middle of the Pacific….changes a lot of the variables. I cannot just call up Lab Alley, and have them ship me ethanol due to most everything coming to the island by air. Hence, I can actually buy 190 proof ethanol, taxes and all, at the liquor store for less than I can get the cheap stuff shipped here.
This statement from the FDA link:
“To prevent the ethyl alcohol in a cosmetic from being diverted illegally for use as an alcoholic beverage, it may be “denatured.” This means that it contains an added “denaturant” that makes it undrinkable.”
The way I read that (with an emphasis on the word ‘may’), if I pay the taxes at the retail liquor store, then everyone is happy. If anyone has seen something that contradicts this, please advise me.
Aloha and Thank You.
-
Hawaii USA.
-
I received my samples (WS FO’s) last night. The first one I tried turned by crystal clear water/ethanol/fairy dust….. very milky. I was rather disappointed.
Not a deal breaker…. as I don’t plan to package in clear bottles.
I was advised by my mentor to just use my old standbys (OS FO’s) + SOLUBILISANT LRI …. but I had such a magically short and beautiful LOI….I did not want to mess it up. 😉