[Graillotion]

Shear is very emulsion dependent.

I only do lab-scale….so I shear for 2 minutes at elevated temps, before lamellar structures are formed.

I stir the entire time until pouring below 35 C.

Some emulsifiers greatly benefit from one last kiss of shear below 40C. I know PCP is one that likes a late kiss of shear.

So, question is essentially impossible to answer…without more details.

[Graillotion]

Umh…..every single cosmetic has the formula listed on the packaging. (LOI)

What are you asking? 😂

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Move on…. (spoiler alert) best marketer wins in the end anyway.

• This reply was modified 3 days, 19 hours ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Likely the Mg Chloride. Delete it…it is a placebo ingredient anyway. If you need it for claim, include it at .01%

If that doesn’t fix it…do a knockout starting with the bottom one…followed by the aloe.

Even HA is a well-known irritant if the dalton size is small enough.

You did not list rates…which is certainly not helpful at all. Even Niacinamide becomes an irritant at some point.

Also list pH if you want educated responses vs guesses.

• This reply was modified 3 days, 19 hours ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Hmmmn… You sure you weren’t mixing up PPM with Percentage? The other one is 99% filler…so it can probably be used at higher rates. ????

• This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

And thirdly…. I’m not sure why you would consider it an emulsifier, even if it was included.

Overall …. looks like something a beginner tossed together to try and ring as many ‘claim’ bells as possible. A plethora of irritants and allergens. Look for something efficacious to model!

Appears to be one of those brands…. that only list…. what they think you want to see. 🙁

• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

I mean …. they even threw a hormone in for good measure…. what the heck?

[Graillotion]

I have sensitive skin… Mag or BS would likely send me to the ER.

TEC is NOT low pH…it has NO pH.

TEC is used IN a low pH system. These systems are MUCH MORE difficult to make well….hence the indie brands have dropped back to beginner level concepts without regard to the users skin.

If you simply drop high pH items and sub in TEC….you will be sorely disappointed. It is a tiny piece to a big puzzle.

If you think the Indie brands have the best and brightest and most experienced cosmetic chemists on the payroll….maybe think again.

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

The mag used it deo…is traditionally a higher pH than the BS used. Scratch your head for a minute…its allowed. So why is BS exponentially more irritating than the mag? Solubility. BS creates a very rapid….for lack of a better term…. explosion of high pH. Mag has poor solubility in water (water is introduced by skin and sweat). Hence, for lack of a better term…. it is more like a ‘timed release’ elevation and maintenance of high pH. See the difference?

If you look at where microbes (the source of odor) thrive….in general, the range is 5-8 (of course there are outliers). Hence it is easiest to make a deo….either above or below that range. That is why you see the two systems on the market.

When we use soap on our skin….it is high pH. Hence we ‘wash it off’ after use. So, leaving something in place, that is high pH…is profoundly different….than using soap.

[Graillotion]

As mentioned,…it is below the 1% line. I suspect it came along for the ride with another ingredient…and was not directly added as an ingredient. Might even have come with the aloe….but there are other possibilities as well.

[Graillotion]

Search the contents of your skin’s NMF (Natural Moisturizing Factor). This is what YOUR SKIN MAKES…to keep itself moisturized. The list you search should come back something like this:

1) Free amino acid ≈ 40%

2) Various ions (chloride, sodium, calcium) ≈ 18.5%

3) PCA ≈ 12%

4) Lactic Acid/Lactates ≈ 12%

5) Sugars, Inorganic acid, peptides ≈ 8.5%

6) Urea ≈ 7%

7) Ammonia, Uric acid, glucosamines, creatinine ≈ 1.5%

8 ) Citrate ≈ .5%

Look at line #4. Ingredients off this list….are generally well tolerated by skin….as they are things it naturally makes. Hence…I would throw my hat in the ring with adjusting pH with lactic acid.

• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

First I would remove the word ‘cosmetic’. That is one of the lower standards in industry. I would elevate to ‘food grade’ if I were going to ingest it.

A number of us take supplements that we hope for a positive outcome on our exteriors. The brilliant George Deckner once wrote a piece on this….let me get you the link.

I take: lutein & zeaxanthin and astaxanthin and Hyaluronic acid with collagen orally every day, with my skin in mind.

Oral Skin Care, Inner Outer Beauty - Prospector Knowledge Center

ulprospector.com

Just a moment...

Just a moment...

[Graillotion]

Humans are like snowflakes (in fact, some are SNOWFLAKES! ????). What that means….is there are no two alike. What bothers you…might not bother me…and Vise versa. So, you have asked a question that is difficult to answer, one that maybe you can only answer for and about yourself.

That being said, the EU has delineated the most common of the allergens contained in essential oils and fragrance ingredients, and even preservatives. With essential oils…it is rather simple to find a GC-MS…and determine how much of these allergens are contained in a specific EO. The only value that will have… is it will give you some insight on the increased or decreased likelihood of the entire population, having any type of sensitivity.

As we like to say….the poison is in the dosing. You can use some of these type ingredients….if you use it at low enough rates (EO’s / fragrances). Some people will not react…if you use many times too much….others will be intolerant to even the smallest amount. Typically, it is pretty difficult to make a cosmetic that the ENTIRE population will find suitable. Hence….you guessed it…. why there is more than one brand. ???? And why ‘unscented’ products are offered. This field extends well past fragrance…and can include about any possible ingredient in a formula.

Good Luck.

The attached link has the EU allergen list in the article. Just use that list…when you study the GC-MS of an essential oil. New allergen list - Cosmacon

• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

cosmacon.de

New allergen list - Cosmacon

The number of potential allergens to be declared in future has been published in a new allergen list. A new Regulation (EU) 2023/1545 of 26 July 2023 amending the Annexes to the EC Cosmetics Regulation was published in the Official … Continue reading

[Graillotion]

Maybe consider a slightly different approach. What I read into your comments is…. “Two things are better than one.” Granted there can be some truth in that statement, but more likely that will lead to having redundant strengths, and redundant weaknesses. You have on the line (Dr Phil Geis) one of the world’s foremost experts in cosmetic preservation. Utilize this opportunity to garner the information you actually need. (Please know…there is nothing wrong with redundance! It should be strived for.)

Approach your questioning to Dr Geis more like this. I will start with a base of PE9010, which I know is proficient against Gram negative bacteria. Dr Geis…. What would you add (if anything) to shore up Gram positive? What would you add for the well-known weakness in the aspect of YMF?

Asking the right questions in life….is always what got me to the desired outcomes and results. ????

And please lose the ‘L’ brand. That is just embarrassing to see that mentioned on this forum.

I came across this nice little piece I had saved a while back from some book I have….forget which one (who know…might even be from Dr Geis’s book) :

• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

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[Graillotion]

Pure lies…. you forgot to mention preservation. ????

How many emulsions of small brand have you not seen, that did not even include an emulsifier.

They believe the FDA only has time to fry the big fish. ????

As they are selling to a ‘special’ clientele, they provide a special LOI. ????

[Graillotion]

Thank you. I will have to debate that. Not the concept….but the fact that I can never purchase the Evonik MOQ’s… but I can buy the Lubrizol pairing small MOQ at the Thai place.

[Graillotion]

Thank you.

Question…. Lubrizol’s Methyl Glucose Sesquistearate has an HLB of 6.6. Evonik makes a version that has an HLB of around 12.

Does the Evonik and Lubrizol version match up (make a good pairing)…as they do not have the HLB spread that the two Lubrizols would have. I suspect no….but maybe I am not seeing the big picture?

Aloha

(It happens that I found that I have a sample of the Evonik version, Tego Care PS … after an additional search.)

• This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

‘J’ is right of course on the charge…. as well, the higher MW HA’s are disruptive to emulsion formation, so timing is key. Your addition of your pre-hydrated mix of HA should be added post emulsification.

Always memba…. HA is typically a claim ingredient… so use less of it (way less)…. and then you won’t even notice the damage it is doing to the formula. Granted this is not a hair product….but this gives you an inside look at how HA is used in industry:

Best selling eye cream on Amazon….to which I even included the full formula. (You are welcome.) Sells 50,000 units a month. Take careful note of the vast amounts of HA they use.

• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Graillotion.

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[Graillotion]

Most doctors do not study this type of medicine….most of them learn to cut it out…and drug it out. If I come across a ‘Dr recommended’ cosmetic in my FB feed…it is likely with worst product on the market, and often times they attempt to preserve it with spoiled Korean food, which demonstrates they have no acumen in the field.

Where the error lies… just like in mommy blogger deodorant (find one that doesn’t have utterly gross coconut in it) is that they don’t distinguish between free lauric acid, and lauric acid bound in a triglyceride. Guess what…. makes a difference. Just like stearic acid in a butter, which is bound in a triglyceride….does NOT perform the same as free stearic acid. ????

[Graillotion]

TEC and pH are just parts of a big puzzle. Hence, in and of themselves…you won’t achieve a product with more than a few hours of efficacy (akin to splashing lemon juice, vinegar etc…on your pits in the shower). (Your skin is trying to alter the pH, from the moment you apply.) You need antimicrobials. You have mentioned some. They will be the backbone of the project.

It is very difficult to make an anhydrous, low pH product. How are you as a laymen…gonna measure pH??? The pH can only be measured on the skin in that format…..after it combines with sweat and skin moisture. Lume has both a hydrous and anhydrous package….I suspect the anhydrous option took up 96% of their development time. How to take an acid in a dry format…and make it come out to just the right target pH….when applied to skin! Think about it.

If you don’t have extensive knowledge in the field, I’d probably stick with the very simplistic magnesium version. Essentially all Indie brands lack the knowledge, therefore flood that approach.

• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

From someone that spent a couple of years working on a project in this space…. I have a hunch the LOI might be a little light. ????

Pretty fascinating what you can come up with under the ‘fragrance’ banner. ????

Or there is always the ‘Indie’ brand Modus operandi …. just leave some things off. If you start as an Indie brand…sometimes that baggage sticks around…as you advance.

[Graillotion]

Cute that you called the ‘blogger’ a scientist. ???? If they actually were….then they would have known the reason!

Baking soda does only one thing. It raises pH. The irritation…is essentially a pH burn.

• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Depending on your start point… you might be surprised to find that sodium lactate will often raise pH. It is what I use as part of my pH up system, when formulating with salicylic acid.

[Graillotion]

Do you ever get the feeling, the group is getting ‘pranked’? I suspect so.

Just a couple of weeks ago…the subject said ” Lavender ” never causes issues! I find it entertaining….but to a point.

• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

They are the most skin hostile ingredients in all of cosmetics. And just AWFUL for those with any skin maladies. Just a cacophony of irritants and allergens.

If you sell a product with these ingredients…. the least you can do is put the number for poison control on the product.

It is the only group of things put into cosmetics, that require being run through a toxicity screen before using. I think beginners don’t like that kind of language…so they have gotten creative with the name of the toxicity screen….and call it something laughable like…. EO Calculator. ????

Tea Tree Oil: Remedy and Poison | Poison Control

poison.org

Tea Tree Oil: Remedy and Poison

Tea tree oil has been used as a 'natural' remedy for a long time, especially for skin afflictions. There is very little scientific evidence

[Graillotion]

How are 196 random, unvetted chemicals….on anyone’s ‘must have list’. No thanx!

I’m a little dull…which of those 196 should I consider….a must have?

GC_VetiverEO

• This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

docs.newdirectionsaromatics.com

GC_VetiverEO

GC_VetiverEO