[elirit]

Pattsi said:

each polymers or gums have their own characteristics, strength, weakness, many brands use 2-3 to get the desired texture. This is the part you have to work it out.

I see you have syn tc, syn tack and matrixyl 3000.extracts are tumeric and green tea extract, don’t dump everything at max % in your first few batches, try playing with your emulsifier and polymer first so you won’t waste your actives. be patient, or if you have large budget to spend - I say go ahead give it a go, if it fail you can use it on your feet.

happy holidays and happy formulating   

Haha Pattsi! That is exactly what I’ve been doing using the failed samples on my body lol. I was unsure why I saw 3 emulsifiers in formulas, I thought it had to do with stability. However, you’re saying it’s related to texture. I do not have a big budget my anxiety etc. But you guys have been great in giving out free advice. I’m still waiting on my emulsifiers in the mail and I will keep you updated

[elirit]

You guys have been amazing. You have helped ease my anxiety as I’m trying to navigate through this journey of entrepreneurship. I really, really appreciate the help

[elirit]

And just to clarify, if i add aristoflex or “cones”, I can remove the xanthan gum? Thx

[elirit]

Graillotion said:

elirit .

I asked Pharma the difference between the two, and here is his response:

“Two different things entirely.

GSC is a high HLB emulsifier, GS a low HLB co-emulsifier similar to stearyl alcohol.”

He steered me to GSC early on, when I was struggling with a very difficult emulsion that 165 (by itself) could not hold together.  

GSC is nice in that it does not bring a lot of thickening, so can be added without completely changing what you already have.

Thank you! I bought the GSC from making cosmetics. I will be trying with mont 202, mont 202 with aristoflex, and 165.

[elirit]

jemolian said:

In my formula it has Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Sodium Phytate, botanical extracts, and peptides. Are these incompatible with Arisoflex? Thank you.

With the mention of Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, i’m assuming you are using SK Influx, i don’t think that would be an issue. 

For Sodium Phytate, as Graillotion mentioned, it depends on the usage rates. Aristoflex won’t be able to take electrolytes, though at 0.05% to 0.1% of Sodium Phytate it might still be fine, but you will only know when doing stability testing. If the Aristoflex don’t work out with the percentage, you can always switch out to other polymerics or carbomer or gums depend on how you want it to be. 

For botanical extracts & peptides, you will need to see what preservatives they used since they may choose to preserve them with Sodium Benzoate or Potassium Sorbate, so it’s something that should be taken note of, besides from the more obvious botanicals that contains electrolytes like aloe or coconut. 

Thank you Jemolian!

[elirit]

Graillotion said:

GSC = Glyceryl stearate citrate

I don’t think available from LC.

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

In my opinion….a must have in the tool box…not as a primary, but as a secondary…that does not destroy texture we work so hard to achieve.

I use this at a SUPER low rate….just to stabilize the Montanov’s.

I also use it with 165 at a much higher rate….on a crazy product that I have…that is incredibly hard to emulsify!  Great tandem.

I just realized that I bought glyceryl stearate, not glyceryl stearate citrate . Ok the peptides are syn tc, syn tack and matrixyl 3000. extracts are tumeric and green tea extract. I was looking online for an electrolyte chcker and was unsuccessful. Ok, I’m off to buy GSC. Thanks again.

[elirit]

Hello All,

I really tried to research this instead of asking this question. It states electrolytes are sodium, potassium, chloride, magnesium, calcium, phosphates, and bicarbonate. In my formula it has Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Sodium Phytate, botanical extracts, and peptides. Are these incompatible with Arisoflex? Thank you.

I also bought aristoflex, GSC (lotioncrafter GMS), and cetyl alcohol this morning. 

[elirit]

Graillotion said:

elirit said:

Graillotion said:

BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream.  This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.

Thank you! I read the same info on lotioncrafter earlier. Today I bought cetyl esters and 165 and alkyl benzoate to trial. Yesterday I decreased eumulgin to 0.5% and 68 to 3.5%(still soapy). Also, does tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate interact with 165 as I have that in my formula. I read it interacts with PEG on one site but have not seen that on other sites. Lastly,  I have 0.4 % xanthan gum in my formula. If the cream is already thick with 68, is there a need for the gum or was it added due to stability? Thanks again. Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.

If soaping is your issue…we need to approach from a little different angle.

1) M 202 will soap less than M 68

2) Across the board, soaping is typically reduced by adding dimethicone, as          mentioned above.  However…if you are trying to be ‘cone free’….it can be done…but it will be costly!  I use between 8-10% of super slip and slide ingredients to = what dimethicone does.  I don’t think you have posted your full formula…another common culprit….is stearic acid. 
 
3) If you use a polymeric…(plus what you have) you can certainly remove the gum.  But memba…most polymeric’s don’t like your electrolytes.  I think Zen can handle some.  Aristoflex…Nope.  I also use Aristoflex…and love it.  I think a lot of people say….Zen gets a little jiggly above .5%.  So maybe don’t exceed that.

I don’t know anything about tetrahexyldecyl.

Thanks Graillotion! First, I will research to see if I have electrolytes in formula. I will try 202 again as I have got it last week. I will read about silicones and the benefits/disadvantages on my lunch break. Wow, thanks everyone!

[elirit]

Pattsi said:

Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.

You paid for this formula ” ( Emulgin SG 1%, Liposorb 1%, and Olivem 1000 6%)”? Not saying it’s a bad formula but it’s seem strange to me.

Hi Pattsi,

Yes unfortunately I paid which is why I ended up finding this site. I had to trial and error. Thank you for all this information. I will get to reading on my lunch break

[elirit]

emma1985 said:

I’ve used Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate with 165, no problems whatsoever. 

Thank you

[elirit]

jemolian said:

I mentioned previously, that the gum might also cause soapiness besides from the over use of emulsifiers, so you can consider:

• 0.25% Eumulgin + 3.5% Montanov 68 + 0.15% Xanthan Gum (Likely to still have some soaping, if not you can consider adding dimethicone or other agents as a replacement)
• 3.5% Montanov with 0.75% Aristoflex (Should make a light cream, can increase to 1% for thicker viscosity)

For the Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate:

Morning or Afternoon Jemolian,

I do remember you stating xanthan gum can cause soaping. I did not remove xanthan gum because I was unsure of it’s purpose in the formula. But I will trial at 0.15% or remove. Thank you for this information regarding tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate.

[elirit]

Graillotion said:

BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream.  This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.

Thank you! I read the same info on lotioncrafter earlier. Today I bought cetyl esters and 165 and alkyl benzoate to trial. Yesterday I decreased eumulgin to 0.5% and 68 to 3.5%(still soapy). Also, does tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate interact with 165 as I have that in my formula. I read it interacts with PEG on one site but have not seen that on other sites. Lastly,  I have 0.4 % xanthan gum in my formula. If the cream is already thick with 68, is there a need for the gum or was it added due to stability? Thanks again. Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.

[elirit]

Please disregard question about cetyl esters. I realized they are different. 

[elirit]

suswang8 said:

Elirit,
You said you disqualified sorbitan stearate due to price, but may I ask where you are finding Montanov 202 cheaper?  

If you are looking for inexpensive sorbitan stearate, Making Cosmetics has it.

Sorry, just saw this post. The small batch factory I contacted stated that the sorbitan stearate was too expensive. I did not ask the cosmetic chemist why it was it the original formula. So I have been making samples without it. Thank you.

[elirit]

jemolian said:

In theory, try reducing your Montanov 68 to 3.5% and see how it goes. Alternatively reduce both slightly. 

Thank you! Dumb question: is cetyl esters the same as cetyl alcohol?

[elirit]

Graillotion said:

elirit said:

jemolian said:

The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have. 

You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it: 

• ~10% oils / esters / lipids
• 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
• 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
• 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex

Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample

I’m guessing….that cream came out pretty thick with those ratios of emulsifiers?  You won’t need much in the way of fatty alcohols then…. So if you want one that (in my opinion) feels awesome….. Consider Cetyl Esters….doesn’t thicken nearly as well as the other…but OH the FEEL!

When I was using Eumulgin….I was using it at .125%, and felt like it was destroying the lightness of the cream.  It is used with the Montanov’s to prevent phase inversions.   GSC will also do this…and keep the cream light.

Keep in mind… Carbomer and Aristoflex…don’t like electrolytes.

I get my GSC at Making Cosmetics…as well.

Yes it came out really thick lol. Do you think I should reduce percentage of eumulgin (1%) and then add cetyl esters? Where do you buy your cetyl esters? Again, grateful for all this knowledge. 

[elirit]

jemolian said:

The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have. 

You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it: 

• ~10% oils / esters / lipids
• 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
• 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
• 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex

Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample

[elirit]

You are a wealth if knowledge and I cannot thank you enough!

[elirit]

Yes you are right regarding pleasing everyone. Lol @bug food. I think I will try the 165 without emulgin at a higher percentage and see how it goes. I think I just got nervous because I see a lot of formulas on markst with 3 different emulsifiers. Thank you:)

[elirit]

Graillotion said:

elirit said:

Graillotion said:

165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s.  One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market.  It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.

I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant

Lotionpro 165 | Lotioncrafter

TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)

INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate

You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams.

Hello, one site said to add cetearyl alcohol to thicken. Could i pair 165 with emulgin to make it more stable with a formula that has alot of extracts? Thank you

165 is hands down the best emulsifier….if you use extracts.

All of the alcohols have different feels…so buy small samples of several…and experiment.  

Cetyl is one of the most common.

If you want to make world class textured creams….just read all the comments on this site written by ngarayeva001

Could i pair 165 with emulgin or another emulsifier on my list to make it more stable? Would PEG 100 be ok to market towards the consumers who prefer “natural”. I remember reading something about pegs and consumer perception. Thank you for answering my questions. I have also read a lot of ngarAyeva001 comments

[elirit]

Graillotion said:

165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s.  One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market.  It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.

I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant

Lotionpro 165 | Lotioncrafter

TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)

INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate

You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams.

Hello, one site said to add cetearyl alcohol to thicken. Could i pair 165 with emulgin or another emulsifier on my list to make it more stable with a formula that has alot of extracts? What percentage would you recommend as one site states 2 to 10%.  Thank you!

[elirit]

Graillotion said:

Well….a tough question to answer…because choice of emulsifier totally changes the dynamics of the cream…. Mont 202 will make something lite like angel feathers (something you’ll never get to feel with Emuligin in there)…Mont 68…something very rich feeling.  Both of which will need an anionic to keep them stable (Emuligin or GSC).  The anionic you chose…will make the cream heavy and dense.  GSC will keep it much lighter.

The last two on your list…both contain Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, a minor surfactant…. which I have found adds to soaping vs helping to eliminate it.  Considering you started with the worst soaper in the biz… anything you will use…will seem like an improvement. The last two are essentially the same…Just one has a fancier INCI.

Why is the 165 series emulsifier not on your list?

Polymulse..again a completely different animal…and unless you are looking more towards a gel cream….I would consider this a ‘co’ product, and much less a primary.

If you are a beginner….the Montanov series can provide a lot of challenges.

Thank you so much! I am a beginner. I have never heard of the 165 series emulsifier. I will research that. You have given me so much info so far.

[elirit]

Thank you all for your responses. I was not getting notifications. Appreciate it.

[elirit]

Lol. That person got it free for her child that gets fed through a g-tube. I tried to edit the title. It is called Sterile Water for Irrigation, (not injection).

[elirit]

Thank you. I’ve decided to just stick with distilled. It is not very clear if the Sterile Water for Irrigation has minerals or not. Plus the term sterile water means different things to different people. Thank you